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Topic Title Does anyone have any studies on 3-carboxypyridine N-oxide?


Date Posted: 10/25/2011 10:04 PM
Posted By: hairykrishna (Accomplished Poster)

3-carboxypyridine N-oxide is the supposed growth stimulant around which Dr. Proctor has built his product line.

I have always felt that the evidence in favor of this molecule as a treatment for AGA is scant, but hopefully the members here will point me to some scholarly sources.

3-carboxypyridine N-oxide is a is a niacin derivative with demonstrated affinity for the nicotinic acid receptor. Although it shares a key structural motif with minoxidil (the N-oxide residue), the latter does not show any affinity for the nicotinic acid receptor (as far as I know, minoxidil has not been demonstrated to bind to any receptors in or around the hair follicle).

The nicotinic acid receptor family has been identified in human epidermis and hair follicles, but their function is not known (not to me, anyway). I am aware of only one pilot study that examined the effect of niacin derivatives in the treatment of AGA, which can be accessed here:
Blackwell Publishing Inc
. The authors report a modest benefit from the use of two two esterified niacin derivatives (octyl nicotinate and myristyl nicotinate) in the treatment of female AGA.

Other than this very tenuous link, I have not been able to find any evidence of the hair-stimulating effects of 3-carboxypyridine N-oxide. I would like to know what makes Dr. Proctor so optimistic about its effects.





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I now provide chemical testing to protect my bald(ing) brothers from being scammed over the internet. PM me if you are interested.

Edited: 10/25/2011 at 10:11 PM by hairykrishna



Date Posted: 10/26/2011 02:52 PM
Posted By: gap2117 (Prolific Poster)

Anything back yet on this?

Hairy, why do you think they haven't been able to refine spiro as it seems to be efficacious, but with pretty severe side effects. Is there any long term data on its effects?



Date Posted: 10/26/2011 09:52 PM
Posted By: hairykrishna (Accomplished Poster)

Sigh, this place isn't as active as it used to be. Maybe I should have just written something about David Beckham.


Originally posted by: gap2117

Anything back yet on this?


Hairy, why do you think they haven't been able to refine spiro as it seems to be efficacious, but with pretty severe side effects. Is there any long term data on its effects?


I'm not sure what you mean by "refine." If by "refine" you mean "purify," then you should be aware that they have no problems obtaining a pure compound. If by "refine" you mean "optimize dosing and delivery," then that depends on who you are and why you're using the drug. Orally, spiro is safe at normally prescribed doses, but most doctors would recommend periodically monitoring your potassium levels. Topically, spiro has virtually no systemic side effects, since it is metabolized to canrenone in the skin.

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I now provide chemical testing to protect my bald(ing) brothers from being scammed over the internet. PM me if you are interested.



Date Posted: 10/26/2011 10:07 PM
Posted By: marklc2004 (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: hairykrishna

Sigh, this place isn't as active as it used to be. Maybe I should have just written something about David Beckham.





Originally posted by: gap2117



Anything back yet on this?





Hairy, why do you think they haven't been able to refine spiro as it seems to be efficacious, but with pretty severe side effects. Is there any long term data on its effects?




I'm not sure what you mean by "refine." If by "refine" you mean "purify," then you should be aware that they have no problems obtaining a pure compound. If by "refine" you mean "optimize dosing and delivery," then that depends on who you are and why you're using the drug. Orally, spiro is safe at normally prescribed doses, but most doctors would recommend periodically monitoring your potassium levels. Topically, spiro has virtually no systemic side effects, since it is metabolized to canrenone in the skin.


so basically i wasted my money on prescription Proxiphen



Date Posted: 10/27/2011 12:57 AM
Posted By: hairykrishna (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: marklc2004

so basically i wasted my money on prescription Proxiphen


I wouldn't say that at all. Prescription Proxiphen contains a slew of compounds with demonstrated clinical efficacy. Unfortunately, I don't believe that 3-carboxypyridine is one of them, even though it is Proctor's major selling point. I would happily revise my opinion if someone provided me convincing evidence.

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I now provide chemical testing to protect my bald(ing) brothers from being scammed over the internet. PM me if you are interested.



Date Posted: 10/27/2011 09:07 AM
Posted By: Bryan (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: hairykrishna

Originally posted by: marklc2004

so basically i wasted my money on prescription Proxiphen


I wouldn't say that at all. Prescription Proxiphen contains a slew of compounds with demonstrated clinical efficacy.


Agreed.

Originally posted by: hairykrishna

Unfortunately, I don't believe that 3-carboxypyridine is one of them, even though it is Proctor's major selling point. I would happily revise my opinion if someone provided me convincing evidence.


I don't know if NANO is one of his "major selling points", although he's stated in the past that it definitely works as he says it does. TEMPO/TEMPOL and PBN probably are major selling points.

Just because there may not be other studies attesting to NANO as a hair growth promoter doesn't mean it doesn't work for that purpose. Dr. Proctor has had long experience with NANO.



Date Posted: 10/27/2011 09:13 AM
Posted By: marklc2004 (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: Bryan

Originally posted by: hairykrishna



Originally posted by: marklc2004



so basically i wasted my money on prescription Proxiphen




I wouldn't say that at all. Prescription Proxiphen contains a slew of compounds with demonstrated clinical efficacy.




Agreed.



Originally posted by: hairykrishna



Unfortunately, I don't believe that 3-carboxypyridine is one of them, even though it is Proctor's major selling point. I would happily revise my opinion if someone provided me convincing evidence.




I don't know if NANO is one of his "major selling points", although he's stated in the past that it definitely works as he says it does. TEMPO/TEMPOL and PBN probably are major selling points.



Just because there may not be other studies attesting to NANO as a hair growth promoter doesn't mean it doesn't work for that purpose. Dr. Proctor has had long experience with NANO.


bryan, prescription Proxiphen looks promising. do u know all the ingredients? i emailed the company and they have not responded.



Date Posted: 10/27/2011 09:35 AM
Posted By: Bryan (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: marklc2004

bryan, prescription Proxiphen looks promising. do u know all the ingredients? i emailed the company and they have not responded.


Nope. Probably nobody knows all the ingredients of Proxiphen, other than one or two or three of his closest associates (like maybe his daughter). The ingredients of Proxiphen is one of his State Secrets, except for just a few of the things which have been revealed over the years: phenytoin, spiro, minoxidil, and TEMPO/TEMPOL and PBN. He could tell me, but then he'd have to kill me!



Date Posted: 10/27/2011 09:40 AM
Posted By: marklc2004 (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: Bryan

Originally posted by: marklc2004



bryan, prescription Proxiphen looks promising. do u know all the ingredients? i emailed the company and they have not responded.




Nope. Probably nobody knows all the ingredients of Proxiphen, other than one or two or three of his closest associates (like maybe his daughter). The ingredients of Proxiphen is one of his State Secrets, except for just a few of the things which have been revealed over the years: phenytoin, spiro, minoxidil, and TEMPO/TEMPOL and PBN.


lol the fda allows such thing? no wonder y u have to personally speak to him.



Date Posted: 10/28/2011 10:51 AM
Posted By: hairykrishna (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: Bryan

Just because there may not be other studies attesting to NANO as a hair growth promoter doesn't mean it doesn't work for that purpose.


The same could be said of any treatment ("lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack...") from essential oils to bull semen. I am not convinced by this line of reasoning.

There are many good reasons to use Proxiphen, but I don't believe (or disbelieve, for that matter) that NANO is one of them.

-------------------------
I now provide chemical testing to protect my bald(ing) brothers from being scammed over the internet. PM me if you are interested.

Edited: 10/28/2011 at 12:16 PM by hairykrishna


Date Posted: 10/28/2011 03:04 PM
Posted By: StandStrong (Accomplished Poster)

Yeah, it is strange that if proxiphen were sold by any other person or company, I bet Bryan would not endorse it. And the reason for that would be lack of scientific evidence. How often does bryan get stuck into other companies products for that reason, yet for some other strange reason Dr Proctor is immune from such scrutiny.



Date Posted: 10/28/2011 03:52 PM
Posted By: StandStrong (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: hairykrishna

3-carboxypyridine N-oxide is the supposed growth stimulant around which Dr. Proctor has built his product line.



I have always felt that the evidence in favor of this molecule as a treatment for AGA is scant, but hopefully the members here will point me to some scholarly sources.



3-carboxypyridine N-oxide is a is a niacin derivative with demonstrated affinity for the nicotinic acid receptor. Although it shares a key structural motif with minoxidil (the N-oxide residue), the latter does not show any affinity for the nicotinic acid receptor (as far as I know, minoxidil has not been demonstrated to bind to any receptors in or around the hair follicle).


The nicotinic acid receptor family has been identified in human epidermis and hair follicles, but their function is not known (not to me, anyway). I am aware of only one pilot study that examined the effect of niacin derivatives in the treatment of AGA, which can be accessed here:

Blackwell Publishing Inc
. The authors report a modest benefit from the use of two two esterified niacin derivatives (octyl nicotinate and myristyl nicotinate) in the treatment of female AGA.



Other than this very tenuous link, I have not been able to find any evidence of the hair-stimulating effects of 3-carboxypyridine N-oxide. I would like to know what makes Dr. Proctor so optimistic about its effects.


I wonder if Topical Niacinamide could help AGA. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate was shown to stop Dihydrotestosterone-inducible dickkopf 1 from balding dermal papilla cells causes apoptosis in follicular keratinocytes.

Maybe topical niacinamide and MAP would be nice, cheapish additions.



Date Posted: 10/28/2011 04:47 PM
Posted By: Bryan (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: hairykrishna

Originally posted by: Bryan

Just because there may not be other studies attesting to NANO as a hair growth promoter doesn't mean it doesn't work for that purpose.


The same could be said of any treatment ("lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack...") from essential oils to bull semen. I am not convinced by this line of reasoning.

There are many good reasons to use Proxiphen, but I don't believe (or disbelieve, for that matter) that NANO is one of them.


I notice you snipped out the second sentence of what I said above: Dr. Proctor has had long experience with NANO. If for some really odd reason you just don't believe what he says about NANO despite having used it for decades, then don't use his products.



Date Posted: 10/29/2011 01:52 AM
Posted By: HelpMyBangs (Accomplished Poster)

Why those companies out of the big 3 don't just make credible human studies?It wll not be any expensive. I don't believe in anything out of the big 3 but sometimes i'm tempted to try....



Date Posted: 10/29/2011 07:34 PM
Posted By: hairykrishna (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: Bryan

I notice you snipped out the second sentence of what I said above: Dr. Proctor has had long experience with NANO. If for some really odd reason you just don't believe what he says about NANO despite having used it for decades, then don't use his products.


I do not disbelieve Dr. Proctor. However, I will not accept an argument from authority unless/until that authority publishes his or her views in a peer-reviewed journal. Even a non-peer-reviewed publication would be better than none.

The fact that Dr. Proctor has advocated NANO for a long time is encouraging, but it hardly constitutes the kind of clinical evidence I am looking for.

My personal use of Dr. Proctor's products does not enter into this. I would reccomend Proxiphen regardless of whether it contained NANO, since it contains a host of other evidence-based ingredients. However, I wouldn't reccomend it on the basis of a molecule for which I cannot find any peer-reviewed data (in the context of AGA, of course).

-------------------------
I now provide chemical testing to protect my bald(ing) brothers from being scammed over the internet. PM me if you are interested.



Date Posted: 10/29/2011 08:08 PM
Posted By: Bryan (Accomplished Poster)

Originally posted by: hairykrishna

My personal use of Dr. Proctor's products does not enter into this. I would reccomend Proxiphen regardless of whether it contained NANO, since it contains a host of other evidence-based ingredients. However, I wouldn't reccomend it on the basis of a molecule for which I cannot find any peer-reviewed data (in the context of AGA, of course).


What is this "host of other evidence-based ingredients" to which you refer? Minoxidil is the only one I can think of. Spironolactone has at least one "peer-reviewed" study (the one by Italian doctors), but not many people seem to accept it. What are the others you're talking about?



Date Posted: 10/31/2011 10:43 PM
Posted By: hairlessness (Accomplished Poster)

If this as well as phenytoin and all the rest of the special ingredients really were effective, wouldn't at least one other product among the hundreds out there incorporate at least some of them?


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Originally posted by: highhairline
"Who in their right mind puts sex above hair? I think you're on the wrong forum."

"It's the genes! And the androgens!"