Detailed Review 2/5/14-As Promised
(Note, this post will continuously be updated/tweaked...time permitting... as we refine it)
SOME HOUSEKEEPING FIRST:
1) I do not like wasting time repeating myself. Hence, do not be lazy and thus read all prior posts on this thread 1st.
a. If minox and propecia are working for you...congratulations...do us all a favor and skip this thread and come back in a few years.
b. Do your homework on the basics of Lasers....specifically on the web or better yet the sites we mentioned in the intro post which we think are the ` most informative.
c. Do your homework on hair loss basics 1st, and more specifically some of the cutting edge technologies mentioned in the intro post.
d. Do not read the posts from your I-phone and thus skip important information.
Bottom-line, I do not have time to write a novel or answer non-thoughtful questions from ill-informed posters.
2) Sorry for some of the long posts, but I prefer to be detailed in my answers/info so posters are left with more answers than questions. Hence, from my experience this is where argumentative pissing contests start as one line answers just end up leaving more questions/confusion
3) A few reminders worth repeating as I do not know how to make it any more clear:
a. As I have said many times before....I do not promote any product, and only report my 35 years of experience trying different treatments. Hence..... people can make their own educated choices....as they certainly should not just rely solely on one persons comments or experience.....as we all should know there is no "silver bullet" or "one size fits all". Hence, as with anything do your homework from VARIOUS sources.
b. Like I said for years, I had completely given up on LLT technology years and years ago as mostly a completely bogus treatment option for most (and doing anything for ME too). Specifically, I've used hairmax, laserwand and clinical machines with no discernable improvement....between 2002-2006. On the other hand, after going back and REALLY studying/ knowing how LLT should work, I become a believer that Theradome has finally got the "proper" laser technology figured out.....hence, night and day.
c. All members of our PM group review bought their own helmets and had to wait on a 1st come basis like everyone else....hence we were just like every other customer of theradome. Thus no shills here and do not even go there!!!
d. Note all review members are coming from an objective viewpoint as each of us have already used other devices...without results. For example 1) Clinical machine Revage 670, Gauntiz Hair Center, LaserMax, Laserwand, OMG helmet, I-Grow helmet. The only one worth while that we have not used is the Lasercap, but Laserfish already did a pretty good review of this one.
e. Based on my interactions with Tamim, he is a very straight up guy and has nothing to hide and is more than willing (time permitting) to answer "intelligent/informative" questions.
4) Like I said before...."time is a great revealer of the truth". REAL RESULTS, not anyone's words, including mine, are the hair almighty gospel.
5) At the end of the day, based on all the information everyone should make their own Big Boy/Lady decisions and thus posters have three clear choices....very simple!
a. Buy one and try it out. If you're not satisfied, return it for a full refund in 120 days.
b. Wait for further feedback/progress reports from review members already into treatments.
c. In the meantime, no need to speculate one-way or the other. Especially those who never try anything outside the box.
Ok, let's begin...
Personally, if you do all the research on Lasers the basic concept is pretty straightforward and simplistic. On the other hand, subtle approaches can make a big difference.
1) OWNERS BACKGROUND:
a. Based on my interactions with Tamim, he is a very straight up guy and has nothing to hide and is more than willing (time permitting) to answer "intelligent/informative" questions that do not broach propriety information.
b. One of the things I liked about Tamim is he is focused on his unique technology and never needed to put down any of his competitors.
c. Tamim is a very bright guy with a bio/medical background. More specifically, he led different research teams that have developed many medical devices (colonoscopy being one) that I am sure any one of us may end up using during our lifetime. In fact, one doctor who is a respected hair specialist said he thinks Tamim is the most informed person on Lasers as he has ever encountered....probably due to his background at NASA working with lasers.
d. What I like about Tamim is he is one of us. More specifically, he was a long time hair sufferer and found nothing was working. Hence, he set out to find a better solution. Thus, he has achieved rare "WOW" results in my opinion. Personally, I think he went from a nw5/6 (with an island of miniaturized hairs) to a nw 1/0.
e. At the end of the day I am confident he is not going to do anything to jeopardize his reputation.....hence, bogus treatments.
2) IT ALL STARTS WITH THE DIODES:
a. Just for a second, let's just forget about how many diodes is best or what is the proper wavelength. Bottom-line, I was always questioning what the website meant about them having "proprietary lasers". Hence, did they just have a higher mw or did they do something else differently or was someone just exclusively manufacturing for them?
b. Until I actually received my helmet and looked at the "FLAT" design compared to my laserwand which uses typical round laser diodes like everyone else. I said ah ah, now I know what Tamim was talking about regarding "designing and building" the lasers themselves with out sourcing from some laser manufacturer. Bottom-line, wavelength and power is only part of the equation as getting "Low Divergence"/"High Coherence" was key.
a. Based on my findings it appears the top portion of balding subjects is ~2.5 degrees higher (per thermal imaging) than on the sides or of non-balding people. Hence, this directly correlates to the inflammation theory I have always believed in.
b. So what does item 3a have to do with the price of tea in china? Well, perhaps my fellow pmer said it best.
Okay here is my summary on why i believe theradome lasers are working so well for us.
I think lasers increase bloodflow. I noticed this immediately after my first session with the Theradome, I do feel a sense of blood rush to my scalp right after a session on the lasers but it is not the pumping feeling that is associated with the DIY laser you often hear about & something I have had personal experience with when i built a 220 laser OMG helmet a 3 years ago, it is more of a cooling sensation. That's the difference between the Theradome helmet and OMG Diy helmets. There is too much heat going on in those diy helmet and caps without consideration in regards to ventilation, not to mention there are too many lasers aswell all overlapping with one another from within the skin.
Overstimulation and heat is a huge problem with OMG and laser cap. This is why i believe the DIYers are constantly going through heavy shedding every 6 to 8 weeks and then the hair has a good grace period an starts to grow back in thicker for a month or to only to shed again a month or two later. This is not normal shedding by any stretch of the imagination. It is not normal to be having 6 or 7 periods of heavy shedding over the course of a year, yes the hair grows back in thicker but is it really worth the hassle if it is going to go AWOL every few months.
Laser brushes don't have this heat and overstimulation issue because no ventilation is required within a brush and normally there is only 1 true laser within the brush with refletive mirrors to point the laser 9 times across the length of the laser max brush/comb. However even with the lack of lasers the brush has been shown to be positively affective without reports of heavy periods of consistent intermittent shedding phases. Take that show dateline for example, one twin was asked to use the lasermax brush as his sole hairloss treatment for 1 year. His hair thickened up, he never went below baseline and he appeared to have regrowth. Watching that video was what gave me the inspiration to pull the trigger and take a chance with lasers again and entertain the idea of using laser treatment again. That's what made me decide to buy the Theradome as I knew they had the overstimulation problem covered, they had the heat issues solved and where able to maximize 90 lasers to give full scalp coverage.
My other thoughts are lasers, not only helps with the role of proper blood flow an repair of impaired restricted blood vessels, but i also believe when used properly they can destroy scalp fibrosis and prevent further scarring of the scalp, which will allow the hair follicles to break through more easily and not be restricted from beneath the scalps surface. There may be a small element of wounding going on there too without being overly invasive triggering off some wnt signaling and pushing the dormant hairs into anagen phase.
I believe that the lasers help juice up and thicken diffused hairs with proper bloodflow to the follicles. These diffused hairs have been restricted and choked off from proper nutrients from within the blood supply, leaving those hair barely functioning.
A scalp lacking bloodflow does not create a very healthy environment and it is not unusual for someone suffering hairloss to also have co existing symptoms of dandruff, fungal infections, inflammation caused by whati believe to be the immune system sending out antibodies to fight off consistent scalp fungus & the scalp being overrun with dermdox mites, where the immunesystem is always on the backfoot an never in proper control of the over breeding of these entities. Too much dermodex mites is going to cause an overproduction of scalp sebum as they purposely aggravate the sebus glands to produce their source of food which is sebum. I believe lasers destroy both dermodex mite and scalp fungal infections, in turn reducing dandruff and the workload of the immunesystem which is the cause of the pdg2 inflammation affect. The immunesytem marginally wipes out everything and the hair is collateral damage.
The lasers cut out the immune system attack by doing the work for it. That is also the reason why i think anti-autoimmune suppressants have been noted to have regrown hair as a side effect, for example the anti rejection drug Cyclosporine which almost shuts down the immunesystem. The anti inflammatory drug sulfasalazine that few have reported near full regrowth of hair, dose dependant of course. Antibiotics have been reported to halt hairloss for example doxycyline & minocyline. These antibiotics may have been wiping out scalp infections. Minocyline was trailed for womens scarring alopecia and a few people have popped up in the forums over the years reporting a halt in hairloss from the use of antibiotics. I think antibiotics if in a wide enough spectrum of what is infected within your scalp personally will have a positive effect on your scalp a least for a while before they become strain resistant then the antibiotics would need to be switched before becoming totally useless. So it is not a long term fix, but it does take the workload of f the immunesystem for a while which in turn will reduce the inflammation attack brought on by the immunesystem itself. I believe that is where minoxidil helps regrow lost hair through opening up the blood vessels and allowing bloodflow directly into the follicles more efficently but ultimately fails on its own as it does not take care of the other aspects of hairloss, even with the use of DHT blockers it won't bring back to a permanent norwood zero & the length of time these medications are effective for vary in an individual basis.
I see lasers as a safe hybrid that can take care of all these problems in a safe manner. I think when all these issues are taken care of with the proper use of lasers then DHT no longer becomes an issue just like any other normal healthy non balding male who has testosterone and DHT running through their veins. Yes it helps to block off DHT if that is your only treatment, but it is only a preventive treatment. Lasers are much more than just a preventive they give the scalp the ideal healthy environment and regrow hair in the process.
Im not sure thats what you wanted but that's my take on lasers, i hope that helps man."
c. I think the first and biggest challenge is that having 200+ lasers in a small area cause cross-over of the laser beams. Meaning that the shape of the laser hats causes multiple laser beams to focus on one area causing a 4x increase in dosage. So if the hat based laser device is claiming 4 j/cm2 they may really be giving you 16 j/sq. cm2 which may be way too much dosage and the FDA would NEVER allow these types of devices in the marketplace, which is why none of the laser hat devices have FDA clearance. Hence, it appears theradome has passed all of the CE/FCC/UL testing - this appears a SAFE product, as others have not passed this type of testing.
c. It looks like Theradome provides about 6.959 J/cm2 which is classified as clinical grade laser and the 80 lasers are real lasers not led's or laser pointer lasers. Hence theradome appears to be tuned for hair growth with low heat. Hence, more is not always better, coverage is often more important. Correct me if I'm wrong but no one has 80 lasers which covers 100% of the mpb/fpb area. In addition, the coverage of 580sq cm is not restricted to fit under a cap or smaller scalp coverage.
....as one pmer said
"I knew there had to be something different when adding the joules. After all it is light and energy being calculated it wouldn't be as simple as 2+2 =4."
...and further clarification from Tamim directly
BTW, it's Tamim with an "m". You are definitely not the first to misspell my name!
Regarding dosage and calculations. To be quite honest, I really do not want to teach everyone on how laser dosage / energy calculations are done since it looks very simple, it is very complex due to many variables that we do NOT share with anyone. I would strongly recommend everyone to review this document (http://www.laser.nu/lllt/pdf/theimpossibledose.pdf)
, as this is a great review on how to calculate dosage. Please note that they make a tribute to Dr. Mester, the founder of LLLT and the reason why Theradome has selected 680nm as the preferred wavelength.
These people need to know that there are variables such as (deleted until approved) characteristics and dose duration which goes into calculating energy density.
We are sticking with our 6.959 J/cm2 which has been validated by independent labs. Again, our goal is to penetrate as deep into the tissue as possible to reach all of the hair follicles up to about 1.5mm below the skin's surface. We maintain 6.959 J/cm2 over a 20 minute period because we do NOT generate any heat and unlike other laser diodes lose optical power output versus temperature. See graph, as temperatures increases, optical power decreases substantially as a function of current and voltage:
The ability to have 80 lasers each running about 6.959 J/cm2 over a large area provides maximum benefit to the scalp and the fact that our lasers remain cool. We do not diffuse our lasers as this brings less energy to the follicles deep within the scalp AND we do not move or rotate the lasers, and keep them stationary as it takes about 20 minutes to fully penetrate to the desired target depth of 1.5mm. In addition, we do pulse our lasers, this is usually done to conserve heat OR power. Our lasers are naturally very efficient and are designed to run cool and uses up very low current, so no pulsing needed.
e. In addition, it appears other products such as the hat-based laser devices have no ventilation under their device, thus from what I heard the temperature increases up to 12 degrees F which is never a good thing.
a. Like many, I thought the prevailing thought/science was that 635nm-650nm wavelength was optimal according to the color spectrum. Well debate it all you want, but Tamim believes you need at least 678nw like the the original laser study for hairloss indicated. For example, Dr. Mester proved that 678nm is the only wavelength tuned to grow hair. Hence, Laser Pointers are tuned at 658nm and are the typical cheap sourced lasers from China that most everyone uses.
b. Also keep in mind the Regage 670 (as in 670mw) is the only other laser I could find that was at a higher wave length like theradome. But since I did not get the results with the clinical ravage 670 then it confirms in mind why items #2 are so important.
c. Hence, all the laser theory is just that....theory.... if not reaching the root of the bulb.
5. LLT COMPARISONS:
a. Revage 670
- 30 lasers at 5mw each with 670 wavelength for total output of 120mw
Note: 1) WOW....no wonder the in-clinic laser did not work for me and probably others. Specifically all the posts that say "Lasers are crap or a rip-off..... I spent xxx thousand of dollors at xx clinic with no results.".....how many times have we heard that, and rightfully so in many cases.
b. I-Grow helmet
- 21 lasers at 5mw each with 635 wavelength for total output of 105mw
Note: 1) See lazerfish review below....hence probably why we do not see more positive posts on hairsites.
c. Laser Cap
- 224 laser at 5mw each with 635 wavelength for total output of 1,120mw
Note: 1) See laserfish review below as he measured only 2.0 mw output
~448 total output.
2) One of our PMers actual measurement was even lower at 1.5mw per diode ~ 336 total output
3) Interesting on LASER CAP review from someone with LLT expertise.......especially last sentence.
- 80 lasers at ~6.25mw each with 678 wavelength for total output of ~500+ total output.
Note: 1) the theradome website says 5mw, but Tamim said they range from 5mw to 8mw (per FDA study) as they use different strengths at different positions...hence the average is ~6.25.
2) Still need to add lazerfishs review here to be fair.
Per Lazerfish Review website (see intro post)
224, 5mw Laser Diodes run by an 11.1VDC Battery Pack:
NOTE per Lazerfish: I actually bought one of these Units to test. Again, another product that COULD HAVE BEEN GOOD if they used quality parts.
ADVERTISED OUTPUT POWER:
1120mw (5mw ×224modules)
ACTUAL MEASURED OUTPUT: roughly 560mw (My Laser Cap)( Extremely cheap 5mw modules outputting around 2 to 3mw average)
21, 5mw Laser Modules, 30LED's
AVERAGE OUTPUT POWER:
85mw + 30 LED's
PRICE: 695USD + shipping
NOTE per lazerfish: LED's may offer a little more power than listed above.
OPINION per lazerfish: They could have made the i-Grow a nice Unit IF they would have had put in about 100 or so, 5mw Laser Modules instead of only 21 Laser Modules and 30 LED's.
21, 5mw laser modules offer a total power of roughly 80 to 90mw since the average 5mw module outputs only 3.5 to 4.5mw.
They say FULL COVERAGE but it is IMPOSSIBLE to get full coverage with only 21modules. LED's do have some benefits but since they output non-coherent light, you need A LOT OF THEM to get real benefit. And Lasers will always outperform LED's with regards to the hair.
6. DARK HAIR VS. LIGHT HAIR
a. Yes, believe it or not most people do not realize different hair colors need different laser strength.
b. Tamim was the only other guy to confirm this besides Gaunitz.
Pmer post regarding info (Guantiz quoted in bold...hence straight from his blogs)
FYI...i remember gaunitz saying this when I flew down to meet him...
Hence, maybe why clinic laser still did not work for my fine blond hair
"If you have blond hair though, it will not be strong enough. You will need to purchase the LaserCap that is about 10 times as powerful. People with very light hair need more laser energy to get a result. This is due to blond hair reflecting light versus black hair that will attract light. If you have black to light brown hair, the Igrow Laser device will work well."..
Gaunitz also went onto say the laser cap should NOT be used by people with dark hair as it will overstimulate....interesting
Note per xxxx...the laser cap has total output of ~1135, hence I emailed theradome to ask what there total output was....
also below....this is why I was always interested in the erchonia device he sold originally as take home product...in fact he said he used to tweak the erconia power for blondes specifically..I know see he sells the lasercap instead of the erchonia devise
"With this being said, the laser comb is using a diffuse light principle to regrow hair. This is important. This is same type of energy that we use in-clinic but at 61 times less the strength. By using diffuse light you are using unfocused energy. This energy is weaker, but is more effective with a multitude of diodes for growing hair on most people. This would be similar to comparing a flood light to a spot light. A flood light gets weaker as the light flow outs in many directions, whereas a spot light will remain focused in a concentrated area. Beside the wavelength, this is core difference between the Lasercomb and THL-1 device. The THL is concentrated, where the Lasercomb is not.
We dig deeper:
THL-1 is a single focused line generated beam of light at 635nm and 5 milliwatts of power. This single line generated beam, because it is focused, can deliver up to 100 times more energy than a comparable diffuse light diode. This means that less treatment will produce a more quality result faster. Or in many situations, produce a result far superior to that of the Lasercomb. The THL-1 is actually so powerful that if you use it more than 6 minutes per day you can actually cause over stimulation. For more information on overstimulation"
7. USER FREQUENCY:
Per Pmer post:
"But after digging deeper and with new info I think things are coming into focus on what a truly effective laser needs to have
Sounds interesting that they said you could use it everyday. It is a risk vs. reward thing happening here. I don't know if I would want to risk everyday. I would say meet them in the middle at least for a while. I will try every 3rd day to start with. The other thing is using it everyday vs. twice a week lets do some math here and figure this one out.
Say the lasers last 4000 hours before they burn out.(240000 minutes)
Everyday treatment 20 minute treatments = 140 minutes per week = 7280 minutes per year = approx 33 years. I would love to know how long the lasers do work, i think laserfish guarantees his lasers for 4000 hrs. I must email theradome and ask what the life rate is on these lasers. 4000 hrs would be awesome. Still I will stick to only treatment every third day and proceed with caution. Slowly wins this race were in it for the long hall just like we have been for years.
Exactly on your 1st paragraph.
...also I think you misread my post about when I will be using...hence I plan to start out 2X and then slowly build up and see what effects it has...bottomline I am not sure if I will use everyday ultimetly...I do not think it is good to use ANY treatment everyday based on my experience with product tolerence."
....and per Domereviewer website
"My question was if Hamid had used other procedures (hair implant, rogaine, etc). The answer was no. He used laser therapy 7 days per week for 4 months and then every other day for a period of time after that. He now uses the theradome once per week for maintenance. The only other product mentioned was Nizoral shampoo."
per Stevo...it is FDA approved for just 2x a week as that is what it was tested for in trials.....on the other hand, the stimulation only lasts 12 hrs, and since there is no overstimulating/heating issues with the Theradome, I suspect (and that is all I will say) is that is why Tamim himself used 7 days a week. As indicated in the detailed review....some are still afraid of "possibly building up a tolerance"...thus to each his own and proceed at your conclusion!
Just remember shedding can either be a good or bad thing depending on each individual or stage of hair cycle....and some may be freaked out by syncronized shedding if accelerating the growth phase too soon.
Personally, I do not like how my hair felt after using back to back days as the hairs felt weaker. Furthermore, you have to realize Tamim only had a small patch left on top and thus he really was not susesptible to increased anagen phase/shedding as perhaps someone else with both more hair and in the loss phase.
Personally, I am going to stick to no more than 3x a week even though a little birdie told me I could use 2x a day 12hrs apart ...seven days a week!
frankly...I think based on feedback...this little may birdie may change his mind/recommendation.
.....gotta love the instant gratification society we live in now days!
Like I said before......some good things in life shouuld not be rushed!
Hence, "patience is a virtue" and unlike other treatments it is not like they are asking people to use for a year before experiencing results.
But hell, like I said before, no one....including me is the HAIR GOD ALMIGHTY....chuckle!
1) Make your own educated/big boy decision.
2) We will be updating this and trying to answer any further detailed questions as time permits.
from the pmer group who feels a duty to share with our civil and respectful mpb brothers (and sisters too).
08:51 AM by