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Topic Title: Autocloning- Why no patients have come forward
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Created On: 12/28/2010 09:52 PM
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 12/28/2010 09:52 PM
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jmcarias
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I find it quite suspicious that no patients have posted anything anywhere that I can find on their experience with autocloning. If this is being done at the Hitzig and Cooley clinics then why arent these people speaking out as to what they have experienced.

The most probable answer may be that the autocloning procedure has been ineffective or with very low yields...

I wish someone that has had this done would speak up.
 12/29/2010 04:36 AM
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Where'd It Go
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Neither have many top doctors/clinics shown all that much interest. Or even commented for that matter.
 12/29/2010 08:36 AM
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Skywalker
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The most probable answer may be that the autocloning procedure has been ineffective or with very low yields...


I don't think that is the probable answer, not that many procedures have been done, it takes time to grow hair and the vast majority of people don't post on these boards anyway.

Frankly it is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to judge Autocloning.

As for top doctors not showing any interest, actually some have, but I figure most would do that privately - remember the take-up rate for FUE was initially virtually zero...

-------------------------
A 'Government Study' is not necessarily proof - "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

Have not had an HT, turned down by 3 clinics, sadly they were right, my donor area has miniaturised.
Now here to look for any advances and give newbies another opinion.

The guy in the centre of my icon doing the inspection of scars is the ideal potential HT candidate:- Doubting Thomas
 12/29/2010 09:31 AM
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jmcarias
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Actually, to correct you- Hitzig has been Autocloning with Acell for over 2 years. Clooney for somewhere around 18 months.

Does it not strike you as odd that not a SINGLE testimonial has been posted?

Dont get me wrong I want to be optimistic here, but this is a huge red flag that I dont think is being addressed here. everyone is so caught up in the hope and the hype that they dont think about a very obvious point. If indeed these docs have been performing these procedures for nearly 2 years, one would think that at least one of 2 things would have occurred by now:

1. the patients themselves would have come forth with pictures or at least testimonials. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE TESTIMONIAL POSTED ANYWHERE ON THE WEB. Aside from Cooley's slides there are NO BEFORE AND AFTER PICTURES.

2. the doctors have not posted their results online with regards to autocloning. Cooley has nothing on his site. Hitzig posts on his sit FUE results using Acell as well as improved healing on strip. BUT absolutely NO AUTOCLONING RESULTS. This is a HUGE RED FLAG, Im sorry.
 12/29/2010 07:09 PM
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Skywalker
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Actually, to correct you- Hitzig has been Autocloning with Acell for over 2 years. Clooney for somewhere around 18 months.

You are not correcting me, during that period my understanding is they were doing very small procedures, and apparently gradually results have improved - so what are you expecting to see?

Does it not strike you as odd that not a SINGLE testimonial has been posted?

No it doesn't it's too early, if we get nothing at all after another 12 months then I would have your concerns.

Dont get me wrong I want to be optimistic here, but this is a huge red flag

I still don't think it is, as I said I am hoping to see a few results in 12 months time, anything before that would be a bonus in my eyes.

Autocloning (assuming it works) is an experimental procedure being done by just 2 doctors so far, it all takes time and I doubt right now they are bothered whether you believe them or not - I am not trying to be rude, I think that is just the reality.


-------------------------
A 'Government Study' is not necessarily proof - "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

Have not had an HT, turned down by 3 clinics, sadly they were right, my donor area has miniaturised.
Now here to look for any advances and give newbies another opinion.

The guy in the centre of my icon doing the inspection of scars is the ideal potential HT candidate:- Doubting Thomas
 12/30/2010 09:04 AM
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pvtpoint2000
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I had a session with the plucking method in Sept 2010 with Cooley.

We tried to implant about 50-60 plucked hairs into FUE white dots from Cole, About 50-60 single and multiple hair groups into the center of a strip scar and 3 total extractions on FUE white spots to see if Acell can restore them to normal skin color.

I had asked my barber last week if she could see and growth yet and replied......: the center of the scar looks much less obvious then the rest.

It looks better in color and more hidden then the non plucked implant area's of the scar...

As for the white dot extractions and FUE implanted hairs she could not tell ware the sites were so its inconclusive

I will however return to Cooley in mid 2011 for an update
 12/30/2010 09:12 AM
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Calvin 2.0
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I agree it's just too early.

That excuse was still being used to defend a lack of FUE results 10 years after the procedure started being done. That was B.S. But with Autocloning I think it really is just way too early right now. It's always hard to get a lot of cases posted up even on HT procedures that are done thousands of times. The docs only want to post the good ones and the majority of patients just don't want to be posted.
 12/30/2010 12:40 PM
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Skywalker
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BTW thanks for the input pvtpoint2000, very much appreciated

-------------------------
A 'Government Study' is not necessarily proof - "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

Have not had an HT, turned down by 3 clinics, sadly they were right, my donor area has miniaturised.
Now here to look for any advances and give newbies another opinion.

The guy in the centre of my icon doing the inspection of scars is the ideal potential HT candidate:- Doubting Thomas
 12/31/2010 05:49 AM
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pvtpoint2000
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Any time!

I'm just as eager to get the final results as you!
 12/31/2010 10:29 AM
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topcat
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PvtPoint, I wish you the best of luck.

Did you take before pictures to compare to the after pictures when you are ready to take them?

It's really hard to go by what one's barber says. It's human nature to make people feel good and tell them they are improving. You know like when the wife asks you does it look like I lost weight? There really is only one answer.

You should try and substantiate your own results if you can.


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Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.
 01/02/2011 10:44 PM
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jmcarias
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thanks for your input PvtPoint.

You are the first real person to give some kind of testimonial as to the efficacy of autocloning. Unfortunately your particular case is not representative as Cooley tried to implant hairs directly into prior FUE scars and not into normal tissue. I may be wrong but it seems to me that the viability of such attempts would be less than if implanted into normal scalp tissue... I also have to say that it would really help if you just try and figure out yourself if any of those hairs are growing or not? I mean i assume they are on the back of your head so it may be difficult but cant you use a mirror, or look with a camera or something else. I agree with topcat that going by what your barber says is just not very reliable.

 01/13/2011 05:58 AM
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pvtpoint2000
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the only way i could tell is if i buzzed my hair down to a crewcut...

ill just need to get the info from Cooley next time im in NC
 02/24/2011 09:49 PM
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jmcarias
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Is there anyone else out there that has had either Acell or autocloning performed by either Dr Hitzig or Dr Cooley.

I still find it somewhat peculiar that only one person has posted anything. Hopefully as time passes more people come forward.

There is currently a lot of debate as to whether autoclonning is legit- any personal stories would be helpful, i think, for the rest of us considering something like this.
 02/25/2011 05:18 AM
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topcat
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Yes there was a patient from England that I have spoken to several times on the phone. He had hair plucking with Cooley and it was a complete failure. I believe Cooley stated since he was grafting into some scar tissue that was the reason, which could very well be true. Otherwise the texture of the scar itself was better but the patient appears to be in a much worse position with the scar being visibly much larger and I do mean much larger.

The clinic will not issue any type of refund but did offer to perform a beard fue procedure as compensation. The patient declined because the clinic has no real experience in that area, and I don't blame him.

I am not knocking the plucking procedure or this clinic but just stating facts. People might not like to read the truth when it is presented to them, but unfortunately it's the truth. Regardless if it's a clinic or a new technique I only post what I know from my own experience and that of others. So when an experience is bad no one should be intimidated by anyone from posting this information as it benefits everyone on the forum.

BTW this same patient did post his story on I believe a couple forums but was very hesistant because he thought his message would be attacked. Well he was right and although he took his time and responded as best that he could he felt he was fighting a losing battle for just posting the truth and decided to just move on. Nothing new there as this is a often repeated pattern on the forums and I don't blame the patients.

No one would like to see this succeed more than myself as I surely do not have enough donor for a complete repair. And this post doesn't mean that this procedure does not have potential. But up until this point we really don't have much proof.

I would also add that the figure Marcus gave on that internet radio show from Hitzig of a 50 hair test with possibly 30 surviving at a cost of $3000 seems like a very short term money grab to me. I do not know what the expenses are, but that does seem to be awfully high.

-------------------------
Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.

Edited: 02/25/2011 at 05:32 AM by topcat
 02/25/2011 08:41 AM
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topcat
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This same patient from England had to really be encouraged to post because he really didn't want to. If the encouragement wasn't given chances are he would not have and no one else would have known which would have been the real shame. How many others are out there that will not post, I don't know but my guess is quite a few.

This is the reality and things have not changed much. I recently called out a patient that posted on another forum when I questioned what he had posted. I remember him very well from about 5 years ago and I know his story. We were actually supposed to meet up but it never happened. He decided to have the thread removed, for what reason I do not know. Then when I started my own thread of civil and polite discourse I now see that thread has been removed. So somehow I am supposed to believe there is nothing to hide, please I have been around for too long.


-------------------------
Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.
 02/25/2011 11:31 AM
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Skywalker
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I believe Cooley stated since he was grafting into some scar tissue that was the reason, which could very well be true.

I think that could be true too, planting into scar tissue is notoriously difficult even with normal HT's, I don't think this really tells us much - but it is worth knowing about.

-------------------------
A 'Government Study' is not necessarily proof - "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

Have not had an HT, turned down by 3 clinics, sadly they were right, my donor area has miniaturised.
Now here to look for any advances and give newbies another opinion.

The guy in the centre of my icon doing the inspection of scars is the ideal potential HT candidate:- Doubting Thomas
 02/25/2011 03:32 PM
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topcat
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Skywalker I spoke with him and half was placed into scar tissue and half in normal scalp tissue. I thought that was my recollection but I wanted to double check. He states absolutely none of it grew.

It's very easy for the clinic to say well it doesn't work for everyone. Maybe this is really the case but if that is so then they should just be doing a small test and not be giving patients false hope and certainly not making a repair patient's situation worse.

But the real point here is that these posters should be able to come on to the forums and post without being attacked. Driving away patients with something to say is bad for everyone except for the clinics with something to hide.


-------------------------
Stay away from doctors who perform mega sessions, have posts deleted, attack posters, sue patients & forum owners, use power drills or robots. I recommend fue with hand punches in the .70-.85 range. I consulted with dozens of clinics over the years and there was a recurring theme regarding FUE among some employees of those other clinics. I was told Bisanga was the man my research told me the same and my experience validated my own research.
 02/25/2011 03:59 PM
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Skywalker
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If none of it grew in normal scalp tissue that is very disappointing - I didn't get that from your previous post.

I don't understand why patients would be attacked by reasonable people if they come and post their experience - of course I know there are cheerleaders and of course there will always be shills who may attack - but I think they will always have to be faced down.

There is a massive amount of money in this business and it is why the rare brave people who have the guts to post bad results are by far the most valuable posters on forums.


-------------------------
A 'Government Study' is not necessarily proof - "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

Have not had an HT, turned down by 3 clinics, sadly they were right, my donor area has miniaturised.
Now here to look for any advances and give newbies another opinion.

The guy in the centre of my icon doing the inspection of scars is the ideal potential HT candidate:- Doubting Thomas
 02/26/2011 05:32 PM
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jmcarias
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I have to say this is somewhat discouraging.

However, as has already been pointed out, implanting into a scar is not the same as regular scalp- more fibrosis/ less cellularity.

I would not advise anyone to attempt this autocloning to repair a scar- it doesnt make sense and is much to unproven. However, it would be interesting to see what people have experienced from plucking into areas of regular hair-loss affected scalp. These clinics are saying regrowth of 50-75% of grafts and it would be meaningful to everyone to know if people having this procedure done actually experience something similar or if everyone is having their plucked hairs just fallout/ not regrow.

The fact that no one from routine plucking procedures is not coming forwards is surely discouraging.
 02/26/2011 05:50 PM
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Jaguar
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"But the real point here is that these posters should be able to come on to the forums and post without being attacked" I totally agree but I would want one better. I would want him to show pre-op then post op then 12 month pics. Is not that I want to doubt the words but I have been around long enough to know it's the internet and anyone can say anything. Good or bad.

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Jaguar (AKA Franklin on other forums)
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