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Topic Title: white bulb? after 3 month of finasteride?
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Created On: 04/03/2011 11:01 PM
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 04/04/2011 10:11 PM
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DecadeTwo
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Originally posted by: AlexWater

well i think im going to start using minox soon i ordered online hope it will work ! btw does using minox without fin? will that be enough? or i have to stick with both?


Minox on its own is next to completely useless (unless you live in 1987).



People: can we at least agree on the very basics? Hair in catogen or telogen should not have a bulb.


-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.
 04/04/2011 10:26 PM
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dogs3
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Originally posted by: Azzuri

That's BS. Same thing happened to me. White bulb comes out of nowhere after few months on fin, and hair loss/scalp irritation began to increase. My hair loss wasn't anything bad at all, I just wanted to be on the safe side, big mistake. Don't get me wrong I'm sure it works for some, actually most people, but definitely not for all. People are different, they react to different things differently. Bottom line.

White bulb appearing after starting fin is not a coincidence and not a good sign in my opinion. I would stop it if I were you, but everyone else is gonna say to continue it, so it's ultimately up to you my friend.


poor advice right there. Your logic is "it didnt work for me, so you ought to stop too."

You don't even mention how long you stuck it out on fin. For all we know you were on three months and quit.

After three months my hair looked worse than it did before starting fin. At least it looked worse to me. Looked unhealthy and it seemed like i shed more. After 6 months it was improved above baseline, and after 10 months the results were undeniably good.

the bottom line is you can't make a decision after 3 months based on any treatment, that includes fin minox nizoral RU etc. To say he should stop after three months b/c you had a bad experience is BS advice.

 04/04/2011 10:30 PM
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DecadeTwo
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Originally posted by: dogs3
To say he should stop after three months b/c you had a bad experience is BS advice.


That's par for the course with the forum-taught hair loss experts... and, yes, it's also BS.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.
 04/04/2011 11:51 PM
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jasfla
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How does it work for broken hairs? Are they affected by mpb or do they come back like before? Thanks.
 04/05/2011 06:28 AM
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AlexWater
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i did uploaded pictures cant you guys see it?
 04/05/2011 07:31 AM
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Azzuri
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Originally posted by: dogs3






You don't even mention how long you stuck it out on fin. For all we know you were on three months and quit.



To be completely fair to me, I was on it for 14 months, because I refused to believe that the treatment was making me worse.
I'm only trying to help, and make him aware of all the possibilities. Like I said, I'm sure it works for most people, but not all.
Everyone is different, everyone gets affected differently by different things in life, not just medications.

After 14 months on fin, my hair was worse then it would have been without the fin. My scalp was irritated and inflamed. This was not a coincidence. The above statement is completely true for my situation, and maybe some other people, who knows.
 04/05/2011 09:38 AM
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TheCamdenKid
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Originally posted by: DecadeTwo

People: can we at least agree on the very basics? Hair in catogen or telogen should not have a bulb.


Well, if you want to talk about the 'very basics' the spelling is 'catagen' not 'catogen', which you've now twice incorrectly spelt even when the correct spelling was clearly apparent in the diagram you have just referred to. Not that the diagram provided anything useful in regard to this argument anyway.

It very much depends on what you mean by 'bulb'. Do you mean specifically the 'bulb' of the hair as in the very bottom of a growing hair shaft? Or do you mean 'bulb' as in any such structure that looks like a bulb on the end of a shed hair? Either way, there is a 'bulb' (being the second definition I referred to above) on a shed hair of those experiencing MPB and those who are not. I implore you to take a look at the hairs on the hairbrush of someone you are fairly convinced does not have MPB to verify this (not that I'm suggesting you go around examining women and children's hairbrushes or pillows, of course - people may get the wrong idea). Having said this, I'm open to the idea that these 'bulbs' on shed hairs of those suffering MPB and those who are not may differ. Indeed, they may even differ if the shed hair comes from a person suffering seborrheic dermatitis or dandruff - dandruff is often something which accompanies MPB and may make the 'bulb' look larger than it perhaps is.

Here's a diagram like yours!


 04/05/2011 09:51 AM
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DecadeTwo
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Originally posted by: TheCamdenKid

Originally posted by: DecadeTwo



People: can we at least agree on the very basics? Hair in catogen or telogen should not have a bulb.




Well, if you want to talk about the 'very basics' the spelling is 'catagen' not 'catogen', which you've now twice incorrectly spelt even when the correct spelling was clearly apparent in the diagram you have just referred to. [IMG][/IMG]


OK fair enough. FF's spell checker doesn't catch it either way, and without a spell checker I can't write in english.


Originally posted by: TheCamdenKid

Not that the diagram provided anything useful in regard to this argument anyway.



It very much depends on what you mean by 'bulb'. Do you mean specifically the 'bulb' of the hair as in the very bottom of a growing hair shaft? Or do you mean 'bulb' as in any such structure that looks like a bulb on the end of a shed hair? Either way, there is a 'bulb' (being the second definition I referred to above) on a shed hair of those experiencing MPB and those who are not. I implore you to take a look at the hairs on the hairbrush of someone you are fairly convinced does not have MPB to verify this (not that I'm suggesting you go around examining women and children's hairbrushes or pillows, of course - people may get the wrong idea). Having said this, I'm open to the idea that these 'bulbs' on shed hairs of those suffering MPB and those who are not may differ. Indeed, they may even differ if the shed hair comes from a person suffering seborrheic dermatitis or dandruff - dandruff is often something which accompanies MPB and may make the 'bulb' look larger than it perhaps is.



Here's a diagram like yours!



What I'm referring to is what is labeled the "hair matrix" in the diagram I inserted.

Looking at brushes is not a good indicator, because that hair may have been ripped out. A better idea is to pluck a hair of someone, or yourself, then compare it to hair that just sheds with some vigorous rubbing.

Pluck a hair out. See the bulb? That's the epithelial sheath used in autocloning. Here's what happens as your hair enters into the whats-it-called phase:

The Catagen Phase (mitosis ceases, the follicle commences a shut down).
All hair follicles enter periods of degeneration throughout the persons life. Approx. 3% of healthy follicles will be entering this shutting down phase (Catagen) at any given time. During this period the epithelial sheath shrinks to form a minute 'club root' attached to the hairshaft's proximal extreme. The hairshaft is thus prepared for eviction. The Catogen phase lasts approximately 10-20 days.


In other words, losing the bulb should be prerequisite for shedding.

Plucked hair with epithelial sheath:
[IMG]http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v12/n2/thumbs/5650051f1th.jpg[/IMG]

Shed hair without it:
[IMG]http://www2.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/jan2004/research/images/fig56.jpg[/IMG]

very basic

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.

Edited: 04/05/2011 at 09:58 AM by DecadeTwo
 04/05/2011 10:01 AM
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TheCamdenKid
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Ok, thanks for clearing up what you meant.

Ok, I understand what you are saying and I know about what you referenced, too. The 'bulb' you are referring to in this instance is a kind of clear gel like substance that you can find if you pluck a hair whilst it is still in anagen. Is that what you mean? What, I believe, the original poster is referring to is a hair that has fallen out by natural means, having undergone all 3 growth cycles (excusing the fact that the person is suffering from MPB), and therefore will never have the 'bulb' that a plucked hair has at the root. MPB results in a shortening of the growth cycles of the hair. The hair still goes through the same 3 growth cycles, they are just shorter in length (or longer, in relation to telogen).

The shed hair the OP is talking about will still have a 'bulb' at the end, just not the one you are talking about that is attached to a plucked hair.
 04/05/2011 10:13 AM
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DecadeTwo
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Right, that's what I'm talking about.

Shed hair should have the 'minute "club root"' mentioned in the blurb I cited, not an epithelial sheath.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.
 04/05/2011 10:22 AM
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irishpride86
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Originally posted by: DecadeTwo

Right, that's what I'm talking about.



Shed hair should have the 'minute "club root"' mentioned in the blurb I cited, not an epithelial sheath.


wait, im lost. no pun intented either,

but for real,

explain that in more depth,

are you saying shed hair should have a " minute or club root bulb" explain how that is different from a white bulb shed hair.

Also explain what is good vs. bad bulbs.

as in a type of bulb that means:

a) that hair is coming back

b) that hair may not come back as strong

c) that hair shed too early, and is bad or good ?

-------------------------
Treatments
-------------
Rogaine foam-day5%(all over top of scalp 2 capfulls worth)-9/09
Minox liquid 5%-night-3/11
1% nizoral 2x week
FIN 1.25 mg(walgreens)-10/11
Biotin 5mg
Msm 2000mg
Ru58841 160 mg 4ml ethonal/pg mixture
 04/05/2011 10:23 AM
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TheCamdenKid
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So, considering that the original poster is talking about a shed hair, at least some degree of a 'club' root is perhaps normal. Although, I'll hasten to add what I did earlier, being that there may or may not be a difference in the 'bulb' on a shed hair seen in those suffering MPB and those who are not.

By the way, I have NEVER heard of a hair 'shedding' whilst in anagen and so has the epithelial sheath intact. If the OP is seeing these, then he must be plucking his hairs out, because even with MPB the hair still undergoes the same 3 cycles. That's why Finasteride users apparently experience shedding at approximately 3 months into their treatment. Finasteride apparently moves a large number of 'miniaturising' hairs into anagen at the same time resulting in the old hair moving into telogen....telogen lasts approx 3 months, vis-a-vis Finasteride users apparently notice shedding around this point.
 04/05/2011 10:46 AM
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DecadeTwo
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Originally posted by: irishpride86

Originally posted by: DecadeTwo

Right, that's what I'm talking about.

Shed hair should have the 'minute "club root"' mentioned in the blurb I cited, not an epithelial sheath.


wait, im lost. no pun intented either,

but for real,

explain that in more depth,

are you saying shed hair should have a " minute or club root bulb" explain how that is different from a white bulb shed hair.


I guess the 'minute club root"' refers to a slight difference in shape between the root and the tip of hair telogen shed hair.

I have short light-colored hair, so if a hair sheds naturally I and I'm looking at it in the white sink, I can't even really tell what side is up most of the time.

When I pluck a hair it has a blatantly obvious white bulb at the root.

This is not to be confused with what I've heard described as "clubbed hair" which is indicative of aplopecia areata. I don't know much about that, or alopecia areata in general, so don't ask me to describe it.

(edit: I was curious so I looked it up. The "clubbing" effect with alopecia areata describes hair getting narrower as it grows...

The affected hairs narrow and as the hair grows, the affected part of the hair shaft reaches the surface and breaks off. These otherwise normal hairs appear clubbed, with ragged and frayed ends referred to as "exclamation point hair." When examined under the magnifier, they look like an exclamation point with the hair narrowing towards the scalp (Hordinsky, 1994).

... so the tip end is the "club" in this case.)

Originally posted by: irishpride86

Also explain what is good vs. bad bulbs.

as in a type of bulb that means:

a) that hair is coming back

b) that hair may not come back as strong

c) that hair shed too early, and is bad or good ?


I don't know that it's possible to make that determination looking at shed hair.

All I'm saying is that, whether or not someone has AGA or TE, naturally shed hair should not have the epithelial sheath attached.

TCC,

There is a such thing as anagen effluvium, where hair is shed with an epithelial sheath, but it's usually a result of chemotherapy or poisoning.

It requires a toxin that attacks rapidly dividing cells, like those in the hair root. In anagen effluvium the cells die before the hair has a chance to go into the other phases, and so the hair becomes detached and falls off with the epithelial sheath in tact.

I doubt this has anything to do with OP.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.

Edited: 04/05/2011 at 10:53 AM by DecadeTwo
 04/05/2011 10:56 AM
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TheCamdenKid
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The normal shed hair I'm talking about will present with a white (but often barely visible) 'club' at the bottom of the hair. These are apparent in shed hairs of those who are suffering from MPB and those who are not. Like I said before, they can be larger depending on any 'skin' that may be attached at the root. If you run your finger nails down the entire length of a shed hair, you can feel that the root is different.

D2, ah, yes. Have heard of that. Didn't realise it involved hairs being shed with the epithelial sheath intact. Touche.
 04/05/2011 11:15 AM
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Rogar6
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Don't know if this is true but I once heard that a healthy hair, not affected by MPB will have a nice round bulb while a hair affected by androgens or some sort of inflammation will have less of a roundness to it and the more unhealthy the hair is, it will have a wispy end to the bulb which makes it no longer a bulb.
 04/06/2011 12:37 AM
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hairlessness
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I found Dr. Lee's famous quote:

"It would be abnormal if the hairs that you shed didn't have the "white bulb at the end". Hair is normally shed at the end of the telogen (resting) phase. Once a hair has made the transition to the telogen phase, its existing hair shaft will not grow any longer. The hair shaft during the telogen phase is no longer anchored securely in the dermis as it was in the anagen phase and can be easily dislodged with the gentle traction of brushing or shampooing or combing. Usually the shedding is unnoticed. Since the hair can accumulate in the shower drain or on soapy hands; patients can erroneously associate washing the hair with causing hair loss. The telogen hair has a club shaped proximal end within the hair follicle and retains the club shape when it is shed. The bulb (or club) is just a cluster of dead cells. If you are finding hairs, which have been shed without the club end, the cluster of loosely attached cells may have been abraded away. However, if the shed hairs actually do not have a club end, it indicates a cause of hair loss other than MPB. For example, damaged hair can break and the end will not have a bulb, 'exclamation point' shed hair can occur in alopecia areata, etc."




What's the significance of the statement "permanent hair removal can only occur during this active growth stage."

Permanent as in MPB?



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Originally posted by: highhairline
"Who in their right mind puts sex above hair? I think you're on the wrong forum."

"It's the genes! And the androgens!"
 04/06/2011 11:24 AM
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dogs3
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Originally posted by: Azzuri

Originally posted by: dogs3













You don't even mention how long you stuck it out on fin. For all we know you were on three months and quit.







To be completely fair to me, I was on it for 14 months, because I refused to believe that the treatment was making me worse.

I'm only trying to help, and make him aware of all the possibilities. Like I said, I'm sure it works for most people, but not all.

Everyone is different, everyone gets affected differently by different things in life, not just medications.



After 14 months on fin, my hair was worse then it would have been without the fin. My scalp was irritated and inflamed. This was not a coincidence. The above statement is completely true for my situation, and maybe some other people, who knows.



Fair enough, I'll definitely agree with you that 14 months is a long enough time to evaluate results from fin.

But did the irritation and inflammation cease when you stopped fin? and how did your hair respond once you stopped it?
Hair Loss Help » Hair Loss Open Topic » white bulb? after 3 month of finasteride?

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