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Topic Title: Miconazole and Ketoconazole cream update
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Created On: 02/16/2011 08:54 PM
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 02/16/2011 08:54 PM
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Maxster
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Well guys it has been one month on micon cream 2% twice a day, and Nizoral (ketoconazole) cream 2% every other day. I apply a fingernail size amount all over my head directly after showering.

No visible improvement yet, in fact I am suspect I am going through a slight shed (tough to tell because I buzz my hair to a number 2) as my right temple may have lost a tiny bit of ground.

My left temple however, looks as if it may be improving... but again, I could just be imagining this, as again, it has only been 1 month.

With that, any other guys trying out the micon cream and keto cream? More updates would certainly be appreciated.

P.S. I have been documenting my hair for the past month... I will really analyze the pics after month 2 or 3 to see what is going on if I cannot tell simply by looking in the mirror.

-------------------------
Maxster
 02/17/2011 10:21 AM
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Mr. Harry
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Thanks for the update Maxster. I know many of
us appreciate it.
 02/17/2011 10:54 AM
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grove
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after 6 weeks i noticed regrowth. Nothing major but if it regrows hair and possibly stops hairloss, AWESOME!

So my hair is looking better, and this is after dropping from 1mg fin to .5mg. So gots to be the creams
 02/17/2011 11:38 AM
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willwork4hair
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i broke out in hives after 1 week of use. going to try a different brand, currently using generic kaiser pharmacy brand.

-------------------------

 

 02/17/2011 11:55 AM
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amsch
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wow, within the years the time a treatment takes to work has been reduced from 6 months to a few weeks.
 02/17/2011 04:57 PM
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Mopless
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Been on this for about.. 4-5 months now. Nothing changed, good or bad. Nice styling cream though. I'll buy another just for the cosmetics and it'll give me that "warm" feeling like I'm actually using something that will help with my hairloss.

-------------------------
Regime - Fin 0.25mg eod or whenever I remember - Miconozole cream daily - Keto Shampoo daily - 1.5mm Needling when I feel like it.
 02/18/2011 01:44 AM
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Maxster
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Mopless, are you using micon and keto (nizoral) cream or just one of them

-------------------------
Maxster
 02/18/2011 02:25 AM
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DecadeTwo
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How do you guys suspect that micon might work?

We know that keto will compete for the AR with DHT, but there's no evidence that micon does this.

It might inhibit the enzyme that metabolizes T slightingly better than keto, but what does that matter if you're using it topically?

T is produced in the testes and has effects all over the body. Reducing it locally with a topical CYP450 inhibitor will likely have no effect.

I just feel like I could find a better antiandrogen to add to my regimen, like spiro. Spiro will actually compete for the AR, and may also be a weak 5ar inhibitor.

You know why I suspect women, and only women, have historically used micon for hair growth? Because like many people do, they wrongly established causation from a correlation. They noticed their "bushes" got "bushier" when they started using miconozole cream for yeast infection, when in fact it was changing hormonal levels that caused both the hair growth, and the need to use miconazole.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.
 02/18/2011 10:43 AM
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Maxster
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Decade,

you are correct, there isn't really much hard data to support the use of miconazole for hair loss... however, I am trying it for the following reasons:

1. The anecdotal evidence is very strong, even from a few guys on this board... could it be a delusion of sorts? Absolutely, but...

2. Miconazole cream is also incredibly cheap and easy to obtain, so it certainly is worth a shot.

3. This is a shot in the dark, and I have no evidence to claim this, but miconazole cream is miconazole nitrate... the nitrate in the formula may have a minoxidil like effect, as minoxidal, if I remember right, uses nitrates in some degree.

If after several months I do not see any results... I am going to try a combination I have not heard of to a great deal, keto cream rotated with spiro cream, as you suggested.

-------------------------
Maxster
 02/18/2011 02:41 PM
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DecadeTwo
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Fair enough.

I guess if you were able to keep T levels suppressed locally for a good chunk of time (e.g. serum T doesn't just "wash over the area" after one hour) it could even be synergistic to an androgen antagonist, especially if you aren't also on fin.

I hope at least a few of you guys are documenting this with good pics (e.g. please keep the hair length and lighting the same). In know RSR is, but the fact that he was in month 9 (or so) of fin usage confuses matters for me.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.

Edited: 02/19/2011 at 12:40 AM by DecadeTwo
 02/18/2011 08:31 PM
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Mopless
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Maxster - Micon cream 2% and Nizoral shampoo 2%

-------------------------
Regime - Fin 0.25mg eod or whenever I remember - Miconozole cream daily - Keto Shampoo daily - 1.5mm Needling when I feel like it.
 02/19/2011 04:53 AM
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strataeast
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it seems that some of the people over at regrowth site are giving up on miconazole. saying thay can see no difference either way. interesting. i always thought it would turn out to be bollocks
 02/19/2011 08:20 AM
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ThickofIT
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That rogazzle guy is getting impressive results (see his photos on the big regrowth thread). I don't think some guys are giving it enough time.
 02/19/2011 09:23 AM
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strataeast
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to be honest in those pictures i don't see it. i think even he is doubting it now. just goes to show that none of us can rely on our own observations. human judgement and perception is pretty hopeless
 02/19/2011 09:32 AM
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damien53
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Originally posted by: DecadeTwo

Fair enough.



I guess if you were able to keep T levels suppressed locally for a good chunk of time (e.g. serum T doesn't just "wash over the area" after one hour) it could even be synergistic to an androgen antagonist, especially if you aren't also on fin.



I hope at least a few of you guys are documenting this with good pics (e.g. please keep the hair length and lighting the same). In know RSR is, but the fact that he was in month 9 (or so) of fin usage confuses matters for me.


Decade, can you explain this post a little bit? Does a combo of Fin and androgen antagonists not work?
 02/19/2011 12:47 PM
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Fat-Elvis
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I've asked this elsewhere with no response, but can you buy micon anywhere in a cream form that isn't nearly as thick as the stuff you buy at the drugstore? Or in liquid form? And in a higher concentration?

-------------------------
Thinned out NW2.5-3

7/30/12 - Dropped rogaine after 16 months because still receding
Quit fin a while back after 5 months due to gyne sides
Currently deciding on new regimen, considering Super Zix with SP and beta sitosterol
 02/19/2011 03:27 PM
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DecadeTwo
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Originally posted by: strataeast

it seems that some of the people over at regrowth site are giving up on miconazole. saying thay can see no difference either way. interesting. i always thought it would turn out to be bollocks


Obviously, I'm not the biggest micon advocate but how long could they have possibly been on it? And what did they expect to see? Success with antiandrogens is measured in maintenance over years.

Originally posted by: damien53

Originally posted by: DecadeTwo

Fair enough.

I guess if you were able to keep T levels suppressed locally for a good chunk of time (e.g. serum T doesn't just "wash over the area" after one hour) it could even be synergistic to an androgen antagonist, especially if you aren't also on fin.


I hope at least a few of you guys are documenting this with good pics (e.g. please keep the hair length and lighting the same). In know RSR is, but the fact that he was in month 9 (or so) of fin usage confuses matters for me.


Decade, can you explain this post a little bit? Does a combo of Fin and androgen antagonists not work?


I think 5ar inhibitors (e.g. fin) and androgen antagonists (e.g. spiro) work synergistically. What I'm wondering is if CYP450 inhibitors (e.g. micon) work synergistically with either, or do anything at all for that matter.

This isn't my area of expertise, but here's what I was trying to say/ask:

As far as I can tell, the micon could be effective by inhibiting the enzyme (CYP450) that metabolizes T, much like Fin inhibits the enzyme (5ar) which metabolizes DHT. Even if you don't think that T has much of an effect on AGA, we can all agree that less T means less DHT.

But does that matter for a topical?

T is made in the testes and has effects all over the body.

DHT is made locally in tissue (such as hair follicles or the prostate), and really only has an effect locally.

So, if I apply micon to my scalp, will it lower T levels for an hour, only to be "washed out" by serum T; or, will it continue to effectively lower levels of T locally for hours? I don't know the answer to that.

If it's the former, then I have no idea how it could be theoretically useful for AGA.

If it's the latter, than someone who is not inhibiting 5ar with fin could theoretically at least lower the amount of DHT produced locally in the follicles by lowering overall T levels in the scalp area.

I'm just wondering aloud. Since most T is produced in the testes, not metabolized by CYP450, I have my doubts that inhibiting CYP450 in one area (the scalp) will have much of an effect. Maybe micon works through some other mechanism, but now we're flirting with wishful thinking.

In any case, we are just talking about yet another potentially effective antiandrogen. We have a ton of those (e.g. Azalaic Acid), and we even have several proven antiandrogenic treatments. We know these work well to maintain hair.

What we need are growth stims. All we have are minox and SODs (and maybe a few others) that grow hair for a short while and "the end".

If we could find a growth stim that works indefinitely, however slowly, that would make a huge difference.

I think it's too bad that people don't look at the "fads" that consume hair loss forums in this context.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.

Edited: 02/19/2011 at 03:51 PM by DecadeTwo
 02/19/2011 09:14 PM
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Dobo
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Originally posted by: DecadeTwo

Fair enough.



I guess if you were able to keep T levels suppressed locally for a good chunk of time (e.g. serum T doesn't just "wash over the area" after one hour) it could even be synergistic to an androgen antagonist, especially if you aren't also on fin.



I hope at least a few of you guys are documenting this with good pics (e.g. please keep the hair length and lighting the same). In know RSR is, but the fact that he was in month 9 (or so) of fin usage confuses matters for me.


Eeeet will neeeever happen

 02/20/2011 01:32 AM
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Kontantinopoli
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Originally posted by: DecadeTwo

This isn't my area of expertise, but here's what I was trying to say/ask:



As far as I can tell, the micon could be effective by inhibiting the enzyme (CYP450) that metabolizes T, much like Fin inhibits the enzyme (5ar) which metabolizes DHT. Even if you don't think that T has much of an effect on AGA, we can all agree that less T means less DHT.



But does that matter for a topical?



T is made in the testes and has effects all over the body.



DHT is made locally in tissue (such as hair follicles or the prostate), and really only has an effect locally.



So, if I apply micon to my scalp, will it lower T levels for an hour, only to be "washed out" by serum T; or, will it continue to effectively lower levels of T locally for hours? I don't know the answer to that.



If it's the former, then I have no idea how it could be theoretically useful for AGA.



If it's the latter, than someone who is not inhibiting 5ar with fin could theoretically at least lower the amount of DHT produced locally in the follicles by lowering overall T levels in the scalp area.



I'm just wondering aloud. Since most T is produced in the testes, not metabolized by CYP450, I have my doubts that inhibiting CYP450 in one area (the scalp) will have much of an effect. Maybe micon works through some other mechanism, but now we're flirting with wishful thinking.



In any case, we are just talking about yet another potentially effective antiandrogen. We have a ton of those (e.g. Azalaic Acid), and we even have several proven antiandrogenic treatments. We know these work well to maintain hair.



What we need are growth stims. All we have are minox and SODs (and maybe a few others) that grow hair for a short while and "the end".



If we could find a growth stim that works indefinitely, however slowly, that would make a huge difference.



I think it's too bad that people don't look at the "fads" that consume hair loss forums in this context.


Hi DecadeTwo,

I was just wondering what is the theory on how Keto might work?

Regards
K

 02/20/2011 01:52 AM
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StillHoping
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I'm looking for a growth stim alternative for Minox.

When I read the hype on miconazole I bought a 2% liquid version ( not cream ).
There are several liquids on the market here in Europe. I used 'Castellani' solution.

I used it several times but quite soon I found out that it gives me testes pain. So I had to stop. Seems that the absorption ratio of the liquid mico is quite high and there may be some build up in the body.
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