What nw were you when you started treating?

What did you start treating with?

What treatments did you add/drop and when did you add/drop them?

How religious have you been about taking your meds?

How long have you been treating all together?

What nw are you now?

 

I'll go first:

I started at basically a nw0 with some noticeable thinning at the hairline.

This was about ten years ago.

I started with just finasteride and folligen.  About 7 months later I added minox and spiro, and wish I had done it sooner.  This seemed to stop my hairloss.  About two years later I swapped Fin for Dut.  I've used a few bottles of 15% minox as well.  I was very bad at taking my folligen (and later tricomin) and my spiro.

About two years ago I swapped spiro for RU, by this point, having maintained perfectly for years but having never regrown any hair I began to get lazy.

I would go three or four days without taking any meds.  I would run out of dut and end up taking 1mg of expired finasteride every three or four days.  I would run out of minox and go weeks without it.

I esentially stopped taking Tricomin.  I was always good about using nizoral 2 -3 times per week.

Then I started to notice some thinning behind my hairline and additional recession.  This all canme to a head about 6 weeks ago.  Now I'm back on my "big 5", and being very good about treating.

I hope to thicken up my nw1 behind the hairline, and maybe get a few mm back at the temples.

 

-------------------------
Dx 2000
Lost ground b/c I've been lazy with Tx
This is my second Decade @ < NW Two
Tx:  Dut, RU, Minox, Tricomin, Nizoral, Tretinoin
Disclaimer:  I'm not an MD, and the internet causes PERSISTENT sexual side effects

Bump

-------------------------
Dx 2000
Lost ground b/c I've been lazy with Tx
This is my second Decade @ < NW Two
Tx:  Dut, RU, Minox, Tricomin, Nizoral, Tretinoin
Disclaimer:  I'm not an MD, and the internet causes PERSISTENT sexual side effects

I fail to see the point in this thread, when those that actually share their experiences get branded as a lier isgust;

Never the less, most know my story.

Began losing hair very early , by 1988 at 28 was a complete Nw 6-7 . Mpb had robbed me of virtually every hair on the top.

Began meds 2008 20 yrs later , and low and behold now I'm a Nw 3.

So my conculsion is that these meds may not help everyone but they sure helped me. I would say they are worth at least trying.

Edited: 07/27/2010 at 04:41 AM by majorsixth

Have things really gotten that negative around here? I've been away for sometime though.

To the original poster, here is my story (which you know much of).

I started losing my hair before I was 20. When I was 21, I went to my barber and asked him if he had anything for my hair. I really just wanted some conditioner to tame the frizz, but he looked at my head and said "your thinning a bit, but you probably won't lose it for a couple years". That was a big shock to me and I was in denial for awhile until I tried to grow my hair long and saw how thin it really was. This changed my outlook completely, and I immediately went to a dermatologist a friend mentioned who was prescribing a pill for hair loss called proscar (this was before propecia was actually available).

I started proscar cut into quarters and after a year, my hair loss had stabilized and I believe I even got some regrowth. It wasn't until I tried to grow my hair again a couple years later that I realized I still needed thickness to pull that off, so I started experimenting with topicals. Over the years I have tried a dozen different things. I finally settled into a routine (once daily) of minox, phenytoin and tricomin. That served me well and I am proud to say I have had my hair to my shoulders for 10 years now.

I made the transition to Dutasteride once that was available. In my opinion, it really didn't work any better than finasteride. I continue to use it though as I suspect the type 1 DHT suppression cleared up my acne and I'm down with having clear skin.

I was using nizoral off and on, but eventually dropped it. Recently, I feel my hair growth cycles have become a little shorter. My hair is still the same density and my hair line appears to be in the same place, but my hair is a little less manageable. Maybe I'm just getting older, but this has prompted me to add a few extra things to my regimen to see if I can't improve things a bit. I am now using nizoral cream (I don't care for how drying the shampoo is which is why I stopped using it years back) in my topical brew. I am also taking MSM and biotin to improve the quality and rate of growth of my hair (I had used these in the past and feel I never should have dropped them). I have also started using the Hairmax Laser Comb 3 times weekly after doing a little research on it (I'm still skeptical that a glorified flashlight can grow hair, but there exists some convincing data out there I can no longer ignore). I plan on posting a follow-up in six months once I have a feel for how these additions have helped me (if at all).




-------------------------
Internals: .5mg Dut, 3g MSM, 5mg biotin \ day

Topicals: Once daily - mixed in shot glass
Retin-a cream
Nizoral cream
10ml phenytoin (100mg dilantin in 50% PG \ 50% Vodka)
5ml minox 5%
1ml Tricomin

Other: Laser comb (3x weekly)

I agree that the negativity to positivity ration on this forum is perhaps a bit skewed.  I was hoping to do my part to change it a bit.

The fact is that with the treatments available someone who notices thinning today has a good chance of keeping nearly all of their hair for a decade or more.

You see a lot of people who get on finasteride and minoxidil and three months later say "my hair looks like crap.  I give up."

I was hoping some positive accounts might inspire these people.  Speaking of which...

ahadabans,

thanks for sharing

-------------------------
Dx 2000
Lost ground b/c I've been lazy with Tx
This is my second Decade @ < NW Two
Tx:  Dut, RU, Minox, Tricomin, Nizoral, Tretinoin
Disclaimer:  I'm not an MD, and the internet causes PERSISTENT sexual side effects

Sure thing.



I agree with you. This is a good thread we should try to keep going. With that said... BUMP.

-------------------------
Internals: .5mg Dut, 3g MSM, 5mg biotin \ day

Topicals: Once daily - mixed in shot glass
Retin-a cream
Nizoral cream
10ml phenytoin (100mg dilantin in 50% PG \ 50% Vodka)
5ml minox 5%
1ml Tricomin

Other: Laser comb (3x weekly)

DecadeTwo,

BTW, I've noticed that you feel pretty strongly about using a topical anti-androgen in additional to an internal, and that you also believe Dut is better at maintaining long term than Fin. You have clearly done a lot of research, so I'm curious what studies/research lead you to these conclusions? At present, I'm in not sure I agree, but I'm open to the idea of reconsidering my stance. If nothing else, I like to talk about this stuff.

-------------------------
Internals: .5mg Dut, 3g MSM, 5mg biotin \ day

Topicals: Once daily - mixed in shot glass
Retin-a cream
Nizoral cream
10ml phenytoin (100mg dilantin in 50% PG \ 50% Vodka)
5ml minox 5%
1ml Tricomin

Other: Laser comb (3x weekly)

1. Started to notice hair loss 10 years ago. I'm 26 now. It became obvious to others at 17, and was a solid NW 2.5 at 19.



Started Follicare system at 19. Used this minoxidil saw palmetto based treatment for 2.5 years till almost 22. To be honest, I felt this is the best product Ive used, and have thought about going back, but I do not like there new formula for there internal supplement. 6 months after i quit I had a HUGE shed, but before I quit i was noticing some thinning in the crown. So who knows if that shed was coming or not.

at 22 shortly after this huge shed, I decided to see a hair transplant doctor. Worst mistake ever. I did not too much research, which was a bad mistake. Saleswoman at this clinic had terrible pushy technique similar to what you would expect a used car salesmen to act. She sold me. I received 600-700 grafts over my entire NW 6 area, when in fact I still had a decent amount of hair up there(NW 3). This, I now know, would do nothing even if I had no hair there. He butchered me and told me not to take propecia. If there is a hell, he will go there.

I started to take propecia shortly after. From 22-24 I took propecia daily along with rogaine foam and folligen and nizoral and some others here and there. Over the next 2 years I saw my hair thin, and thin, and leave me head, only to see the marks and the scars and the bumps left from my hair transplant.... and the grafted hair.. and the scar in the back of my head.

I decided to get FUE into my scar at 24 years of age in hope to help camo it. And it did, but now i basically shave my head completely (almost, using a no guard on the buzz, but a buzzer that gets really really close) so in retrospec it was a waste of money and FUE does leave marks.

I stoped taking propecia shortly before my 25th, because whats the point of taking propecia if its not working. I now consider myself a full blown class 4 with significant diffuse thinning in the NW 6 region. In all reality, I am a NW 6 because the hair is so freckin thin, that its basically vellus hairs.

I now buzz down, and its really the best option at this point. I am still very affected by the hair transplant as the way it looks has destroyed my confidence in myself completely. Now that Im a little older, I see more and more guys just shaving buzzing or w/e and if I didnt have these grafts/bumps/scars/etc I would be in such a better place. Oh well, you live and learn. Now i pray for histogen to work.

the end

-------------------------
F@(K it! No treatments. Nothing. Im done wasting money.
Dr. Thomas (scum) Wentland-1800 hairs, destroyed my life.
Dr. Ron Shapiro- 176 FUE into scar. Happy with results.
Buzzing my head no guard, happy except for the marks left from scumland, i mean Dr. wentland.

God to the above poster , I may now never go on propeci

-------------------------
Treatments
-------------
RU58841- 1x per day 3% (RU all over top, Made Fresh Everyday at night, 150 mg of RU mixed with 5ml of 25% PG & 75% Everclear)
Rogaine foam- 2 cap fulls ( 1x morning only all over top of scalp)
NANO shampoo 3x a week
Omega 3 - 2x day 2000mg ( dha-epa)
Biotin 7mg- 1x day
MSM- 3000mg 1x day
Fluridil ( SOON TO ADD)
-----------------------
Stopped propecia 9/06/09 after 7 months of really bad TE shedding and Hyper R

Wow. Innermind, that is a rough story. Thanks for sharing.

-------------------------
Internals: .5mg Dut, 3g MSM, 5mg biotin \ day

Topicals: Once daily - mixed in shot glass
Retin-a cream
Nizoral cream
10ml phenytoin (100mg dilantin in 50% PG \ 50% Vodka)
5ml minox 5%
1ml Tricomin

Other: Laser comb (3x weekly)

I'm not sure that this will convince you, but I base my theory on what I deduce from all the studies we are all familiar with.

Starting with why I think that dut will maintain better than fin, there is the obvious FDA haircount studies, which are basically apples to apples, showing dut was better at regrowing hair.

The same study showed, head-to-head finasteride vs dutasteride, that 1mg fin blocks 70% of serum DHT but only about 38% at the scalp, whereas with 0.5mg dut the numbers are more like 92% and 55%.  2.5mg dut only blocked 4% more in the serum, but at the scalp the numbers shoot up from 55% to almost a whopping 80%.

Lest one should think that it doesn't matter, the haircounts say it all.

Now, I know this is old news, and I can picture bryan's left hand trying to stop his right hand from posting a reply to point out that other studies come up with different numbers for scalp DHT.  He is correct, but those studies generally look at only one compound, whereas this is an apples to apples comparison of both.  You can take it with a grain of salt, but I recommend you at least take it anyway.

Continuing with this facile logical analysis of stuff we already know:  The 5ar deficient subjects in the Dominican Republic still have T, but lack our favorite enzyme to convert it to DHT.  One can speculate that their insensitivity to T is perhaps a result of never having been exposed to DHT, but I think the much more obvious answer is that T simply has little effect on hair.  Therefore, I think for most people (90 - 99%), reducing DHT levels by 90% or more at the scalp will result in the long term (decades) maintenance of their hair (though not much regrowth).

As we have already seen .5mg of DUT only gets you so far in that regard.  Irrespective of what % of scalp DHT you believe is blocked by the dut, we know a minority remains.  This speaks to why I believe in topcial antiandrogens.

Even if there were a topical 5ar blocker that was as proven as RU, I would still prefer to use the RU.  You are probably asking yourself "why is that?  I thought you didn't believe T and other androgens had much of an effect on hair?"  I still don't, but there is some evidence that estrogens may have a mildly benificial effect on hair (see also...  what was it called?  17 a-estradol or something like that?  It's escaping me right now).  By competing for the androgen receptor while not acting as an androgen, compounds like RU and Spiro may allow any beneficial effects of estrogens on the follicle to be better realized.

Also, it never hurts to hedge your bets.  There may be some other as-yet-undiscovered enzyme that the 5ar deficient fellows in the DR lack, which contributes to AGA to some smaller extent than DHT via some other metabolite of T.  Maybe, despite the lack of any empirical evidence to confirm this at the moment, T is actually somewhat detrimental to the follicle per se.  Who knows really?

This is all speculation, anyway, as there is no topical 5ar blocker with as much promise of efficacy as RU, IMHO.  If you think Azaleic Acid works well, then Dr. Lee has a bridge to sell you .  (I buy Xandrox for the Tretinoin, not for the AA, but I feel like there is not much to lose with AA anyway.)

So, that is basically my non-professional theory on androgens and AGA in a nutshell.  You can sum it up as follows:  I believe there is a strong causitive association with DHT reaching the scalp and AGA.  Period.

As you can see, it is pretty straight forward, and does not really add any original research (such as the "hairline is more sensative to T" theory, posited by members of hairloss forums), so people don't like it.  Nor does it explain why people like irishpride get TE that doesn't seem to stop from 5ar blocker, so it isn't perfect either (is there any research or theory as to that?).

I, however, like to keep it simple, and this works for me (when I remember to buy and take my treatments).

 

@ innermind,  You probably know this already, but that sucks bro.  My heart goes out to you.  I can't imagine what it must be like to have such aggressive MPB that it is noticeable to others by 17.  I felt pretty unlucky when I noticed my AGA at 19, and I knew it would be aggressive, but AGA at 16 and a nw6 at 26 is a-whole-nother ball of wax.

@ irishpride,   I know you get TE from fin, but, pretending for a scond you were someone who didn't, I don't know what innermind said to discourage you.  He seemed to imply that his scumbag HT doc gave him bad consult by telling him not to go on fin.  I wonder how much hair he would have today if Dut and RU were available to him back then.  Through induction you can see from my response to this and other posts why I think fin, minox, and nizoral alone are not enough to stop such aggressive MPB (e.g. 62% of scalp DHT remains when treating with fin alone).

-------------------------
Dx 2000
Lost ground b/c I've been lazy with Tx
This is my second Decade @ < NW Two
Tx:  Dut, RU, Minox, Tricomin, Nizoral, Tretinoin
Disclaimer:  I'm not an MD, and the internet causes PERSISTENT sexual side effects

Edited: 07/26/2010 at 01:42 AM by DecadeTwo

Had minor hair loss which I noticed more cos washed hair in the sink.

Aged 24 friend told me he was receding, I sort of convinced myself I was.

Went online 2001, didn't see this site, only went on keratin.com

Read about propecia, someone presumably a SPAMMER suggested inhousepharmacy for proscar aka NATURALHAIR.CO.'UK' LOL

Proceed to buy proscar fo 7 years. Initial high libido (very early) gives way to ongoing erectile dysfunction and low libido leading to many lost relationships.

Also lose ambition and float along in mediocre jobs.

Maintain NW1 with very little hairloss. Note increase in hair loss a couple of times off pill, and big libido increase. However not off long enough.

In 2008 make some bad moves in terms of accomodation and work, probably making sides worse. Have panic attack summer 08 which in retrospect was coming off fin due to INHOUSE PHARMACY *****ing up delivery leading to gap.

Completely recover from all sides while not on fin but don't make the connection.

Contact INHOUSE PHARMACY to resend fin.

Go on fin again fall 08, notice initail shed then depression, brain fog, headaches, blunted personality. Look at myself in the mirror a lot.

Cock seems smaller when going to the toilet. I even buy measuring tape to check.
Balls seem to hang higher. Notice I get colder in the shower, lowered body temperature.

Continuing to masturbate as normal, perhaps spending too much time on youporn.

Notice one night when wanking some translucent watery jism comes out and cock seems to bend short of full erection.

Panic, finally realise proscar is culprit after net search, come across Mew's postings about andropause like WTF?!! dISCOVER PROPECIA**LP.com and find out what caused my depression, moddiness, loss of libido, concentration etc.

Immediately quit and hope to return to normal, cursing my stupidity.

Wekk later go out on my birthday and take ecstasy and coke. Feel very weird. Get big bruise on my leg. Wake up next morning and have a wank though.

Facial hair starts to slow, over next few days sleep also becomes poorer. Finally began to get increasing anxiety at work. Start falling asleep due to poor interrupted nightime sleep. Go to ER for massive bruise Thursday night.

Finally after a couple of days of high anxiety at work, scoffing tons of herbal anti-anxiety remedies to no avail, finish on Friday. Feel better after work, meet new girl, go out for few drinks, feel anxiety again. End of night go back home, wake up next morning COCK BENDS TO THE LEFT. Go into suicidal panic, still can't get logged on propecia help, do a wiki on 'suicide'. Go to doc on Monday and get anti-anxiety pills.

Go to doc on Monday, print out list of symptoms from propecia**lp.com and he says I'll be fine. Then I tell him I quit 3 weeks ago and his face freezes, makes me appt with uro.

Still stuck in awful apartment with ugly ginger dirty orange bastard aspergers kunt for roommate, get hot flashes, panic attacks....

Start to get floates , tinnitus, loss of appetite. Start to lose weight, lose 10KG of muscle in TWO MONTHS. iNITIAL APPNTMENTS WITH ENDO/URO ARE FRUITLESS AND I Have to wait THREE MONTHS to see them.

Hit with massive fatigue, insomnia for many months. Quit my job which I didn't like much anyway.

Go to see world renowned hormones specialist Hertoghe later in year. Says he can get me back to normal 'but not erections'. Then says 'Il a curvature, la disease peyronie' to his (young attractive female who I had to tell I was impotent as she gasped) assistant doctor.

Lost all my money, my social iife, my interest in the world and culture.

Penis and scrotum shrunk up and changed colour, testicles shrink. Acres of spare forsekin.

Have near total ed, must be one in 50 000 men got this where I am.

Manically start to research potential cures years down the line - gene therapy for erections....


STILL GOT NW1 FRONTAL RECESSION - THANKS FINASTERIDE.

Jesus Farrel...
Ban this guy already

Just a question. Why the hell are you on a hair loss sit when you have a fooll head of hair?

X2

ahadabans

any chance to see your hair?

X3

-------------------------
Dx 2000
Lost ground b/c I've been lazy with Tx
This is my second Decade @ < NW Two
Tx:  Dut, RU, Minox, Tricomin, Nizoral, Tretinoin
Disclaimer:  I'm not an MD, and the internet causes PERSISTENT sexual side effects

"STILL GOT NW1 FRONTAL RECESSION - THANKS FINASTERIDE"

Just entering this would've sufficed and kept the thread on a postive note.  Fin did it's job, you still have your hair, which was obviously important to you since you were willing to take a drug on without researching it.  If you're that worried about dick not working, get off a hair loss forum and go searching for erection pills, remedies, herbs, drugs, whatever.  You kept your hair, so fin worked for you. 

I know this is conventional wisdom, but I think we are putting too much weight on the REGROWTH numbers and not enough of the NET DIFFERENCE to placebo and baseline. I personally think it is a very large leap to say that an additional +30 hairs per square inch after 24 weeks implies that Dutasteride will maintain counts better in the long run than Finasteride. It's apples to oranges (comparing regrowth vs maintenance - they aren't the same thing).

At 5 years, Finasteride users were still above baseline while placebo users were almost 300 below baseline. This to me shows a clear disruption in the progression of MPB. I also see no reason to assume that the reduction in hair counts is SOLELY due to DHT, or that even those counts will continue to decrease at the same rate past 5 years when users who were taken off fin and put back on were still seeing (albeit minimal) increased counts at 5 years.

We also need to remember that these numbers are averages that include a wide range of hair loss sufferers (from early to advanced, young to old), and we should be careful about how many deductions we make with them. Beyond saying that Finasteride appears to greatly slow or stop the progression of MPB, I'm not sure we can reasonably deduce anything else from these numbers. Now, if we had a better breakdown of the statistics for each Norwood classification and age bracket, we might be able to draw more conclusions. I bet if you could get your hands on the data for NW2 and subjects in their early 20's, you would not find a decrease in hair counts from year 3-5 (or that decrease would be practically flat line). I really think 5AR inhibitors are exponentially more effective for people who start using them early in the balding process. I have stated many times that I believe MPB becomes a very dynamic beast after the initial DHT trigger happens. From there, IMHO all bets are off as to what mechanisms are at work and I'm not willing to draw some of the same conclusions you guys are regarding these regrowth numbers for that very reason.


-------------------------
Internals: .5mg Dut, 3g MSM, 5mg biotin \ day

Topicals: Once daily - mixed in shot glass
Retin-a cream
Nizoral cream
10ml phenytoin (100mg dilantin in 50% PG \ 50% Vodka)
5ml minox 5%
1ml Tricomin

Other: Laser comb (3x weekly)

I started thinning & receding by about 15. NW#2.5 by 17. Hairline mostly stopped there for a long time but the thinning and very slow recession continued.

I didn't do anything to medically fight the MPB until I was around 28. NW#3-3.5 by then, thinning in a NW#4a-5a pattern. Then I finally started drugs.




-- Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) works great for me. Works bad for some others.
-- I tried low-dose Finasteride for 2 years. It worked very to maintain but gave sides.
-- Nizoral, I recommend it to anyone.
-- Lately been using RU. It seems to work about as well as Fin but without sides.

4 years after starting monkeying with meds, I look a little bit better than I started. NW#3 with moderate thinning on top.





I don't have a very high opinion of the drug options in general even though they seem to have worked for me better than the average guy here.

Lots of guys say "the drugs work fine, you just can't procrastinate for years before starting them." Well, I would have probably needed to start taking anti-androgens in about junior high to protect my NW#1. And I'm not even an aggressive balder in the big picture.

I attribute most my maintinence success during the last 4 years to the same thing that put me in this mess in the first place - genetics. My genetically-programmed MPB journey started early but prceeded very slowly.