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Topic Title: Is there a link between hairloss and acne? Sebum overproduction!
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Created On: 03/16/2008 11:35 AM
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 03/16/2008 11:35 AM
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Simen
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Is it just me, or is any one else struggeling with both? Got some acne on my chin, from time to time on my forehead and a few on my upper back(shoulders).. Well my face skin and scalp gets oily every evening, and is oily every morning..so I've got sebum oveproduction..

How to reduce sebum

Looks like nizoral is effective at reducing sebum production..but I use it, but my scalp is oily still..

Other products:
]Originally posted by: Jsmith
Topical flutamide has helped with my acne/oiliness. Some of it is absorbed systemically which will bring your testosterone levels down. Fin increases the amount of free testosterone in your system, which results in increased skin oiliness in some acne-prone individuals. You might want to give flutamide a shot.

Topical flutamide is available at www.genhair.com (they also got spironolactone here)

Ohters claim azelaic acid will reduce sebum, but there's they say nothing about sebum Here, only that it reduces dht, which is good, but not what I was looking for..(I'll might give azelaic-acid a try later on)

Anything else that might help against sebum? (drinking lots of water??:confused
 03/16/2008 12:31 PM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: Simen
Looks like nizoral is effective at reducing sebum production..but I use it, but my scalp is oily still..


Even the exclusive use of Nizoral shampoo alone (with no other shampoos being used) only reduced the size of sebaceous glands by around 20% or so in that famous French study of Nizoral for MPB, so you're probably not going to notice that relatively mild effect.

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Originally posted by: Simen
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]Originally posted by: Jsmith
Topical flutamide has helped with my acne/oiliness. Some of it is absorbed systemically which will bring your testosterone levels down.


WRONG. Systemic flutamide will RAISE your testosterone, it won't LOWER it.

Quote

Originally posted by: Simen
Ohters claim azelaic acid will reduce sebum, but there's they say nothing about sebum Here, only that it reduces dht, which is good, but not what I was looking for..(I'll might give azelaic-acid a try later on)


Azelaic acid definitely doesn't reduce sebum. There are studies in both humans and animals attesting to that.

.
 03/16/2008 01:22 PM
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Simen
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Quote

Originally posted by: pproctor
Quote

Originally posted by: joy wants eternity


"If i could get some topical flutamide for a decent price, I think i'd be confident to drop this. Does flutamide change your dht? "



Yes. in addition to increasing tissue sensitivity to androgens, Flutaminde causes an major increase in testosterone, which results in an increase in DHT. Using flutamide to treat prostate cancer, you must castrate the patient. Otherwise, reflex hyperandrogenicity rather quickly completely overwhelms the therapeutic effect.



The difference is that flutamide directly blocks the androgen receptors everywhere and non-specifically, while finasteride only blocks the production of DHT in tissues where type-2 5AR is an important source of this compound. Mainly, the hair follicle and the prostate. So, the reflex hyperandrogenicity is a lot less and finasteride works longer-term even in patients who have not been castrated . In fact, a little reflex hyperandrogenicity helps to minimize the sexual, etc. side-effects of finasteride.



Peter H. Proctor, PhD,MD


OK, flutamide increases testerone levels..I was just quoting

Hmm..I've read in another tread that you(Bryan) might give topical flutamide a try..does it reduce sebum?
Do you know anyhing else that will help reduce sebum?
 03/16/2008 03:25 PM
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calvinmd
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Acne and hair loss do seem to go hand-in-hand. I've got more than my share of both.


Nizoral works on the acne problem to some extent, but I personally don't want to waste it that way when it could all be going onto my scalp. We have to limit the total amount of Niz that goes into our systems because of the strong anti-fungal issues, and I'd rather put it into saving my hair than into an acne problem. (Hair losses are pretty irreversible and there are also fewer other options to try for it.)


I've gotten major sebum lowering by taking Pantothenic Acid supplements lately. I've been on a couple of grams (not millgrams) per day and it has made a major difference in my skin. But honestly I'm not sure how safe this is in the long-term. (Bryan, got any input on this one?)

 03/16/2008 04:12 PM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: Simen
OK, flutamide increases testerone levels..I was just quoting


I knew you were only quoting, which is why I was careful to include the material showing that you were quoting Jsmith!

Quote

Originally posted by: Simen
Hmm..I've read in another tread that you(Bryan) might give topical flutamide a try..does it reduce sebum?


I've still never used topical flutamide.

To complicate things still further, I'll mention here that one of the very few human studies on topical flutamide found something very peculiar: at first there seemed to be no net effect on sebum in the test-subjects (which, by the way, included both men and women), but then when they looked at the effect in the men and women separately, they found that the flutamide DECREASED average sebum production in men, but INCREASED it in women!! They had no real explanation for such a strange effect, except to suggest that maybe flutamide has a sort of "normalizing" effect on sebum.

No, there was no way to tell from the design of that specific study whether flutamide's effect in the men came by the topical route or by a systemic route.

Quote

Originally posted by: Simen
Do you know anyhing else that will help reduce sebum?


We know for sure that sex hormones profoundly affect sebaceous glands, so that pretty much leaves either estrogens (bad for men to take) and antiandrogens, and spiro and ketoconazole are pretty much all we have in that department. Spiro is only a rather mediocre topical antiandrogen, in my opinion.

.
 03/16/2008 04:15 PM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: Simen
Do you know anyhing else that will help reduce sebum?


Oh...and Accutane will definitely do that, at least temporarily, but I don't think you'd want to go THAT far!

.
 03/16/2008 04:30 PM
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Simen
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I've actually ordered some "Pantothenic Acid 500mg" when i ordered minox this last time(the shipping cost are big $41, so I order b5 as well) Was planning to start up with 2g every day the first weeks, then reduce it to 1g a day BUT, I think my package is stopped in the custom service(dont know if it's named this in english?), cause here in Norway we're only allowed to order 6mg pantothenic acid..damn (I'll have to take 167 "legal" norwegian tablets to get 1g, thats sick..lol)

..Aloe vera is also a sebum controller..might consider this also..can get this at any store

Edited: 03/16/2008 at 04:52 PM by Simen
 03/16/2008 04:37 PM
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Simen
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Quote

Originally posted by: Bryan
Quote

Originally posted by: Simen
Do you know anyhing else that will help reduce sebum?




Oh...and Accutane will definitely do that, at least temporarily, but I don't think you'd want to go THAT far!



.

LOL..oh NOOOOOOO!!!!! Accutane can even increase hairloss..that wont do me any good..
Thanks for all your input
 03/16/2008 06:26 PM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: calvinmd
Nizoral works on the acne problem to some extent, but I personally don't want to waste it that way when it could all be going onto my scalp. We have to limit the total amount of Niz that goes into our systems because of the strong anti-fungal issues, and I'd rather put it into saving my hair than into an acne problem. (Hair losses are pretty irreversible and there are also fewer other options to try for it.)


Don't you remember some time back when somebody posted a link to the early testing of ketoconazole in a topical form? It showed no systemic effects, with blood levels of the drug near the lower limit of what could even be detected, even after sizeable doses, as I recall. I'm pretty sure the conclusion of the researchers themselves was that topical ketoconazole is very safe. I'm surprised that you would think it's something that has to be used and meted out with great caution, so as not to overdose on it!

Quote

Originally posted by: calvinmd
I've gotten major sebum lowering by taking Pantothenic Acid supplements lately. I've been on a couple of grams (not millgrams) per day and it has made a major difference in my skin. But honestly I'm not sure how safe this is in the long-term. (Bryan, got any input on this one?)


I take a dim view of huge doses of pantothenic acid (some people take as much as 10 grams/day), which I consider to be a Journey Into the Unknown. For everybody I've seen claim that it lowered their sebum, I've seen another person say that it had no effect. Seems very risky and dubious to me.

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 03/16/2008 09:04 PM
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iostream71
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i had mild acne that i had been prescribed antibiotics for 2 years(way too long, i know). as soon as i went off them, i had a large shed in the hairline. i had been a slow loser for the past 10+ years(i was 35 at the time). started taking propecia and it totally eliminated my shoulder acne, but still have breakouts here and there on my face. the antibotics thing really has me curious, though
 03/16/2008 09:35 PM
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calvinmd
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Topical Ketoconazole is really that safe? WTF?


I thought there was a pile of evidence that daily long-term usage of the stuff was hard on the body's systems because of the strong anti-fungal properties. Isn't that the reason that something like Nizoral is generally considered a "1-3 times a week" sort of deal rather than a daily-use thing?




The last time I read heavily about Keto was early in my MPB studying odyessey. Perhaps I got internal systemic effects data confused with findings about using it topically?

 03/17/2008 12:10 AM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: calvinmd
Topical Ketoconazole is really that safe? WTF?

I thought there was a pile of evidence that daily long-term usage of the stuff was hard on the body's systems because of the strong anti-fungal properties. Isn't that the reason that something like Nizoral is generally considered a "1-3 times a week" sort of deal rather than a daily-use thing?


But balancing all that is the simple fact that even 2% Nizoral Shampoo is OTC in so many other countries around the world! You can walk into any pharmacy or supermarket anywhere else and buy it right over the counter!

Quote

Originally posted by: calvinmd
The last time I read heavily about Keto was early in my MPB studying odyessey. Perhaps I got internal systemic effects data confused with findings about using it topically?


Yeah, there's no doubt that oral ketoconazole is nasty stuff, and has to be treated with great respect. But I remember that thread from a few months back which had those early experimental test results with topical ketoconazole. I'm going to see if I can do a SEARCH for that same thread. If I find it, I'll BUMP it up for you!

.
 03/17/2008 04:36 PM
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Simen
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Hmm.aloe vera is not a sebum controller..eh..I'm confused.. Or maybe it is..google is not my friend anymore..lol
But aloe vera is not a dumb thing.. "Aloe Vera: You can rub Aloe Vera into your scalp each night. It’s believed that the herb activates the production of nitric oxide and contains an enzyme called superoxide dismutane. These two substances combined may stimulate hair regrowth in those suffering from male pattern baldness." ..ok, why not..but I use minox at night, what a mess..

I found something else.. "Jojoba Oil is an excellent lubricant that has been used in hair care formulas for years. It replenishes lost moisture to both skin and hair. It adds more body while removing hardened sebum from the hair, and fortifies the hair shaft and ends."

And they say the same Here "Jojoba oil in the strategy: Prevents follicle blockage by removing excess sebum and cholesterol from the scalp.
Has anti-oxidant properties which prevent free radical damage. Condition and nourish the scalp and hair."

I thought jojoba oil would make your hair/scalp oilier.. Experience with jojoba oil anyone?

(And ok, azelaic acid doesn't reduce sebum..but it's a sebum controller..Google power..eh..)

Edit: And there is also Retin-A(tretinoin), sebum controller aswell..still not good enough for my problem..

Edited: 03/17/2008 at 04:52 PM by Simen
 03/17/2008 06:02 PM
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Mad Max
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What I find interesting is that most things that help out with hair loss tend to either have anti-fungal properties or fluid regulation properties. Seems to be a very strong coincidence.
 03/18/2008 01:39 AM
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calvinmd
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BTW Bryan,
about the Pantothenic Acid:


I belong squarely in the "good responder" category with this one right now. Been on a couple of grams per day with varying specific amounts. Probably somewhere between 1-3 grams on average, for a few months straight.

My skin has visibly changed for the better. I would put it on the same level with doing a daily leave-it-on coating of 10% Benzoyle Peroxide. One might consider that only a moderate change for a topical, but it's a lot more than any oral acne medication that I've ever seen or heard of.



-- I don't know what this means for MPB one way or the other. I can say for sure that it hasn't hurt my hair at all. I suppose it might be good because of the skin's sebum/DHT link in general, but that idea is not based on anything other than hope.



-- It's worth noting that my diet has been a lot closer to shiite than decent over the years. I'm not a wretched hog or anything, but I've definitely got the lack of sufficient unprocessed fruits/grains/veggies that most westerners suffer from. So if that is really where a deficiency in B5 would be coming from then I'm an ideal candidate to be seeing the effects.


 03/18/2008 04:17 AM
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Pete
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Quote

Originally posted by: Simen
Is it just me, or is any one else struggeling with both? Got some acne on my chin, from time to time on my forehead and a few on my upper back(shoulders).. Well my face skin and scalp gets oily every evening, and is oily every morning..so I've got sebum oveproduction..



How to reduce sebum



Looks like nizoral is effective at reducing sebum production..but I use it, but my scalp is oily still..



Other products:

]Originally posted by: Jsmith
Topical flutamide has helped with my acne/oiliness. Some of it is absorbed systemically which will bring your testosterone levels down. Fin increases the amount of free testosterone in your system, which results in increased skin oiliness in some acne-prone individuals. You might want to give flutamide a shot.


Topical flutamide is available at www.genhair.com (they also got spironolactone here)



Ohters claim azelaic acid will reduce sebum, but there's they say nothing about sebum Here, only that it reduces dht, which is good, but not what I was looking for..(I'll might give azelaic-acid a try later on)



Anything else that might help against sebum? (drinking lots of water??:confused




Pantothenic acid, Zinc and Piroctone Olamine Shampoo.






Regards
Pete






 03/18/2008 05:02 AM
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pimpinhair
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Yo calvin,

Are there any sides to taking such a large dose of vit B5 ?
 03/18/2008 11:33 AM
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Pete
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Quote

Originally posted by: pimpinhair
Yo calvin,



Are there any sides to taking such a large dose of vit B5 ?




There is no need to take megadoses. Build up and then taper down to a maintenance.




Regards
Pete
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