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Topic Title: Topical Finasteride - The verdict
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Created On: 07/13/2007 03:18 PM
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 07/13/2007 03:18 PM
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Rocket man
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I've been using topical finasteride, in a dermabase vehicle, for the past 2 months. I had blood tests done for testosterone, free test, DHT, and Estradiol levels before and after.

The results are below.

Test (before): 1,003 ng/dL (range 241-827)
Test (after): 1,036 ng/dL

Free Test (before): 17 pg/mL (range (6.8 - 21.5)
Free Test (after): 21.5 pg/mL

DHT (before): 109 ng/dL (range 30- 85)
DHT (after): 33 ng/dL

Estradiol (before): 44 pg/mL (range 0 - 53)
Estradiol (after): 42 pg/mL

Studies using hydroalcoholic vehicles indicated systemic absorption, but the cream based vehicles were thought to have no systemic effects (reference the Lucas hirsuitism study). Well, it appears as though the cream vehicles are not what we had hoped. You can see my DHT levels dropped by 70%, which is exactly what you would expect if you took the drug orally.

Disappointing to say the least.

To those debating epilobium and its effects on hormones, I would recommend the same test I conducted above.
 07/13/2007 04:29 PM
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worriedwoman
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Why is this disappointing? Isn't a 70% drop in DHT good? Especially if you can avoid systemic sides?


 07/13/2007 11:45 PM
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Harry Balls
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use less fin

-------------------------
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/websites/Harry%20Balls/
 07/14/2007 12:11 AM
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highsierra
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Quote

Originally posted by: worriedwoman
Why is this disappointing? Isn't a 70% drop in DHT good? Especially if you can avoid systemic sides?


If his blood serum level DHT shows a drop of 70% due to topical application, it means he has actually absorbed it systemically, and is subject to associated side effects.

It's a catch 22................ lower DHT, save hair, risk sides. DHT levels maintained, lose hair, no sides
 07/14/2007 01:54 AM
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bill2
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Wow, this is one of those incredibly rare, actually useful and concise posts of info on this forum. You dont see these often here, usually just repetition, unanswered questions, and hearsay.

Would like to know how much you used though? In other words, how much actual finasteride where you applying each day?
 07/14/2007 02:31 AM
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worriedwoman
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Quote

Originally posted by: highsierra
Quote

Originally posted by: worriedwoman
Why is this disappointing? Isn't a 70% drop in DHT good? Especially if you can avoid systemic sides?




If his blood serum level DHT shows a drop of 70% due to topical application, it means he has actually absorbed it systemically, and is subject to associated side effects.



It's a catch 22................ lower DHT, save hair, risk sides. DHT levels maintained, lose hair, no sides



Ahhh....of course. That makes sense. Thx.

 07/15/2007 10:11 AM
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harry_s
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so it means that it is absorbed at source (presumably a good thing as DHT levels in the scalp will be reduced), but at the dosage taken it affected the whole body. would a significantly lower dosage still help at source i.e. the scalp without the subsequent undeired effects mentioned?
 07/15/2007 10:36 AM
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genon
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Nooo... What he is generally saying is topical fin does nothing, you might as well just take the pill. Any effect you get from topical fin is only because it absorbed into the body, it has NO local effect.
 07/15/2007 11:03 AM
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highsierra
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The whole hypothesis of topical fin is to deliver the anti-androgen to the follicle without it actually entering the bloodstream, thus eliminating the chance of sides. Unfortunatly, no one has seemed to have been successfull accomplishing this, at least to the same level as taking the drug orally.
 07/15/2007 11:56 AM
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Mr. Harry
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Excellent post, rocket man. What dose were you using in the dermabase?
 07/15/2007 03:14 PM
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Rocket man
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I was making a 0.2% finasteride cream - 15 pills x 5mg in 30g dermabase + 10g propylene gylcol. I would go through the 40g or so in about 2- 3 weeks. Let's say on average it was 17 days, so 75mg/17 days is about 4.5 mg per day. I could have applied less/day, but spreading that cream isn't easy and I went with a concentration to match the Lucas hirsuitism study. I also only applied it to my crown. I don't think a lower dose would have resulted in a different conclusion. It's clearly absorbed systemically and the dose response curve for this drug is very steep.

Also, I would apply the cream as my last topical, long after applying minoxidil. I didn't want to apply the cream, followed by a hydroalcoholic vehicle, and risk having the ethanol drive the finasteride through the skin and into the bloodstream.

I wish some of the other debates about topical dutasteride's and epilobium's systemic effects would be tested using the same protocol I used. Is anyone willing to give it a try? The blood tests are easy to buy from www.lef.org.

 07/15/2007 05:24 PM
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early20shair
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does this mean the same thing for topical spiro as it does for topical fin? basically, do all topical DHT supressors actually systemically lower DHT?
 07/15/2007 05:34 PM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: highsierra
The whole hypothesis of topical fin is to deliver the anti-androgen to the follicle without it actually entering the bloodstream, thus eliminating the chance of sides. Unfortunatly, no one has seemed to have been successfull accomplishing this...


Except for a couple of modest studies, while others were unsuccessful. That's why I've said for years that the results of experiments with topical finasteride have been all over the map.

.
 07/15/2007 05:38 PM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: Rocket man
I wish some of the other debates about topical dutasteride's and epilobium's systemic effects would be tested using the same protocol I used.


Hell, epilobium hasn't even been tested systemically, much less topically!

.
 07/15/2007 05:39 PM
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Rocket man
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Bryan,

I was optimistic that a cream version of topical finasteride might work, without systemic absorption. Based on the results of my test, I'm now convinced there is no solution to the topical finasteride dilemma.

 07/15/2007 05:53 PM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: early20shair
does this mean the same thing for topical spiro as it does for topical fin?


Both human and animal experiments have shown that there is very very little risk of systemic side-effects with topical spiro.

Quote

Originally posted by: early20shair
basically, do all topical DHT supressors actually systemically lower DHT?


Some basic physiology for you: there are antiandrogens, and there are 5a-reductase inhibitors.

All 5a-reductase inhibitors (finasteride, dutasteride) suppress the formation of DHT by blocking or inhibiting the enzyme which converts testosterone to DHT. Whether they do that systemically or "locally" (like when they're applied topically) is a separate issue.

Antiandrogens (spironolactone, RU58841, flutamide) are substances which bind to androgen receptors, preventing androgens from having their usual effect. They have no direct effect on the production of DHT.

There are a few substances which have BOTH properties: they are both antiandrogens AND 5a-reductase inhibitors.

.
 07/15/2007 06:13 PM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: Rocket man
Bryan,

I was optimistic that a cream version of topical finasteride might work, without systemic absorption. Based on the results of my test, I'm now convinced there is no solution to the topical finasteride dilemma.


I hear ya, man. I'm sorry it didn't seem to work for you.

.
 07/15/2007 06:24 PM
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Rocket man
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Back to the drawing board!

I'm going to give Nizoral cream a shot. The photos from that study were very encouraging. If I could find a topical 5-ARI or an anti-androgen that works as well as oral finasteride, I would be very happy.
 07/15/2007 10:39 PM
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calvinmd
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So X amount of Finasteride applied to the scalp ends up getting into the system about as much as X amount of Fin swallowed as a pill.
That's unfortunate but good to know. I really appreciate you doing the work to reliably figure this out.


My next question: What was the hair result?
If we can't use topical Fin to get a non-systemic result, then is there any chance of using topical Fin to get SCALP AREA results any greater than just what's getting into the system?

 05/12/2011 03:23 PM
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aleilard
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Rocket man

need to contact you to know that treatment has made ??to the problems you had with the meibomian glands and dry eye.

I think I'm having the same problem for taking finasteride.

I appreciate your response

Excuse my poor English but I speak Spanish.

Thanks
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