Okay... a study that you probably have never seen. There are one or two Usenet threads in which it was mentioned.

The English translation of the abstract is rather poor. Unfortunately, the institutional subscription through which I can access the Journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology does not provide coverage for years prior to 2000, and I don't know of anyone that has the full text for this article.

Dill-Muller, D. and H. Zaun (1997). "Topical treatment of androgenetic alopecia with spironolactone." Journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology 9(Supplement 1): S31.

Abstract: Spironolactone, the aldosterone receptor antagonist, posses antiandrogenic effects by peripheral receptor inhibition and decrease of enzyme activity in the testosterone biosynthesis. We evaluated the effect of topical treatment with spironolactone (1% in Solutio Cordes®) on androgenic hair loss in women. The diagnosis has been based on clinical criteria (biparietal and/or central thinning of the scalp hair), more than 25% telogen hair in the frontal trichogram, regular endocrinology status and in some cases on punch biopsy. 60 female patients in three groups (Gr. 1: 24 patients with hemilateral monotherapy; Gr. 2: 20 patients with bilateral application and Gr. 3: 16 patients with combined systemic antiandrogen therapy) received topical treatment with 10 drops (gr. 1) spironolactone solution rsp. 20 drops (gr. 2 and 3) daily on the androgene dependent area of the scalp hair for minimum 6 months up to two years by now. Clinical status and trichogram had been controlled after 3 and 6 months. In case of objective response in group I, patients were advised in bilateral therapy. In group I 65% of the patients presented objective response and 40% of them - with early onset of spironolactone therapy - showed new hair growth. In group 2 the topical therapy results in improvement for 60% of the patients. Whereas in group 3 only 50% of the patients presented a decrease or stabilisation of their hair loss. Still an acceptable result regarding the previous long term systemic therapy without benefit. There were no changes in vital signs, e.g. hypotonia or hormonal disorders reported during the therapy. Spironolactone is an effective topical treatment for the androgenetic alopecia in women.

What's the difference between the groups? I can't make heads or tails of the description. Group 3 got "combined systemic aa therapy," but did the worst. Does that mean oral as well as topical spiro?

Oh yeah, and the subjects were women. Still, interesting.

(BTW, I just picked up some spiro--Dr. Lee's "odorless" 5%. It smells like garbage when applied, but for some reason I don't mind. It's sort of like enjoying your own fart.)

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Originally posted by: chris09
What's the difference between the groups? I can't make heads or tails of the description. Group 3 got "combined systemic aa therapy," but did the worst. Does that mean oral as well as topical spiro?

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The abstract is largely indecipherable. That's why I want to see the original.

In an effort to save people time, I've translated the abstract from crappy English to less crappy English. The text is presented in a sequential fashion, with my intervening translation appearing within square brackets. You'll notice that the results seem very odd (systemic + topical faring poorly compared to topical alone). It does not seem that the abstract accounts for all of the details.


Abstract:

Spironolactone, the aldosterone receptor antagonist, posses antiandrogenic effects by peripheral receptor inhibition and decrease of enzyme activity in the testosterone biosynthesis.

[Spironolactone is an antiandrogen.]

We evaluated the effect of topical treatment with spironolactone (1% in Solutio Cordes®) on androgenic hair loss in women.

[We evaluated the effect of topically applied spironolactone (1% hydroalcoholic solution) in female androgenetic alopecia.]

The diagnosis has been based on clinical criteria (biparietal and/or central thinning of the scalp hair), more than 25% telogen hair in the frontal trichogram, regular endocrinology status and in some cases on punch biopsy.

[The diagnosis was based on the presence of thinning of the bitemporal or central (i.e., crown, vertex) regions of the scalp, more than 25% telogen phase hair as confirmed by a frontal trichogram, normal hormonal levels, and in some cases, a punch biopsy.]

60 female patients in three groups (Gr. 1: 24 patients with hemilateral monotherapy; Gr. 2: 20 patients with bilateral application and Gr. 3: 16 patients with combined systemic antiandrogen therapy) received topical treatment with 10 drops (gr. 1) spironolactone solution rsp. 20 drops (gr. 2 and 3) daily on the androgene dependent area of the scalp hair for minimum 6 months up to two years by now.

[60 female patients were recruited and divided into three groups. Group one consisted of 24 patients, and patients were instructed to apply 10 drops of spironolactone to the affected area on one side of the scalp (frontotemporal regions?). Group two included 20 patients, each of whom applied 10 drops to the affected area on both sides of the scalp. Group three consisted of 16 women, who in addition to receiving topical therapy as per group two, also received systemic antiandrogen treatment.

Condensed version:
Group one: 10 drops topically to one side of scalp (10 drops total)
Group two: 10 drops topically to each side of scalp (20 drops total)
Group three: same as group 2 *plus* systemic spironolactone.]

Clinical status and trichogram had been controlled after 3 and 6 months.

[Clinical status was assessed by trichogram at 3 and 6 months after initiation of therapy.]

In case of objective response in group I, patients were advised in bilateral therapy.

[If patients in group one appeared responsive to therapy (at either followup?), they were assigned the same treatment instructions as group two.]

In group I 65% of the patients presented objective response and 40% of them - with early onset of spironolactone therapy - showed new hair growth.

[65% of the patients in group one showed evidence of response; 40% showed new growth?]

In group 2 the topical therapy results in improvement for 60% of the patients.

[60% of patients in group two responded.]

Whereas in group 3 only 50% of the patients presented a decrease or stabilisation of their hair loss.

[Only 50% of group three (the women also receiving systemic spironolactone therapy) demonstrated a cessation or slowing of the progression of hair loss.]

Still an acceptable result regarding the previous long term systemic therapy without benefit. There were no changes in vital signs, e.g. hypotonia or hormonal disorders reported during the therapy. Spironolactone is an effective topical treatment for the androgenetic alopecia in women.

[More gibberish followed by positive remark about topical spironolactone treatment.]



Edited: 07/24/2005 at 06:45 PM by Dave001

I've known about that study for a long time; however, it just now occurred to me while re-reading that abstract that it _might_ provide useful evidence against Stephen Foote's theory. An unusual aspect of that trial is that in group 1, the spiro was applied to only one side of the scalp. If they found a positive response only where the solution was actually applied, that would be another nail in the coffin for Stephen's eccentric theory!

However, it wouldn't do me much good if the study is in German, and I can't even find it on PubMed to see what language it's in, so I'm not sure whether to risk ordering it. Rats.

Bryan

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Originally posted by: Bryan
I've known about that study for a long time;

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Yeah, that's because I told you about it over a month ago. To be precise, you had found out about it in February of 2001, but had forgotten until I brought it up recently.

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however, it just now occurred to me while re-reading that abstract that it _might_ provide useful evidence against Stephen Foote's theory. An unusual aspect of that trial is that in group 1, the spiro was applied to only one side of the scalp. If they found a positive response only where the solution was actually applied, that would be another nail in the coffin for Stephen's eccentric theory!

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What a waste. You might as well spend your time attempting to refute Ernie's "theory".

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However, it wouldn't do me much good if the study is in German, and I can't even find it on PubMed to see what language it's in, so I'm not sure whether to risk ordering it. Rats.

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I have the details. Also, as I mentioned earlier, a relative of mine is fluent in German (he probably knows the language better than most native Germans), and I'm sure he wouldn't mind translating it for me. It's only a couple of pages. However, I'm fairly certain that the article is available in English (though the abstract suggests that a copy in German would be preferable).

Does it really matter? I mean, havent we come as far as were going to get with anti-androgens , and 5-ar inhibitors... DUTASTERIDE, PROPECIA, FLURIDIL, RU5881, SPIRO, TOPICAL ESTRADIOL, etc etc etc... Is is worth even debating about and going into some topical that was used ONLY for women and that has been terminated....

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Originally posted by: Dave001

What a waste. You might as well spend your time attempting to refute Ernie's "theory".

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I remember well the EXACT moment I stopped discussing things with Ernie several years ago. It was a moment when I realized with a flash of Zen clarity (truly a satori experience) that Ernie just doesn't have the intellect to understand hairloss theory, no matter how hard I might try to explain it to him.

Stephen, on the other hand, is a smart guy. He understands technical material. His only personal foible is the inability to see that a cherished pet theory of his is unworkable. It's a matter of deadly PRIDE, I suppose, not a lack of intellect.

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However, it wouldn't do me much good if the study is in German, and I can't even find it on PubMed to see what language it's in, so I'm not sure whether to risk ordering it. Rats.

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I have the details. Also, as I mentioned earlier, a relative of mine is fluent in German (he probably knows the language better than most native Germans), and I'm sure he wouldn't mind translating it for me. It's only a couple of pages. However, I'm fairly certain that the article is available in English (though the abstract suggests that a copy in German would be preferable).

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Do you have enough of the details to answer the question I have about whether or not the beneficial effect is restricted to the site of application?? If not, I'll go ahead and order the thing, confident in the knowledge that your relative can translate it for us, if necessary!

Bryan

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Originally posted by: TomOmasta
Does it really matter? I mean, havent we come as far as were going to get with anti-androgens , and 5-ar inhibitors... DUTASTERIDE, PROPECIA, FLURIDIL, RU5881, SPIRO, TOPICAL ESTRADIOL, etc etc etc... Is is worth even debating about and going into some topical that was used ONLY for women and that has been terminated....

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Heheheh....are we all FINALLY coming around to realizing something that Dr. Proctor has been harping about for YEARS on alt.baldspot?

Bryan

Bryan- did that guy you speak to on the other hair loss forum mention any advancement about RU comming to market?

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Originally posted by: Bryan


I remember well the EXACT moment I stopped discussing things with Ernie several years ago. It was a moment when I realized with a flash of Zen clarity (truly a satori experience) that Ernie just doesn't have the intellect to understand hairloss theory, no matter how hard I might try to explain it to him.


Stephen, on the other hand, is a smart guy. He understands technical material. His only personal foible is the inability to see that a cherished pet theory of his is unworkable. It's a matter of deadly PRIDE, I suppose, not a lack of intellect.

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Face it, I've got *plants* that are more intelligent than Mr. Foote-in-his-mouth.

[...]

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Do you have enough of the details to answer the question I have about whether or not the beneficial effect is restricted to the site of application?? If not, I'll go ahead and order the thing, confident in the knowledge that your relative can translate it for us, if necessary!

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It was the publishing details to which I was referring. I don't know anymore about the content of the study than what I posted. I wouldn't waste your money ordering the study. Subscribers who get that journal through Elsevier can download it from ScienceDirect. MIT's subscription to that journal is through either Blackwell or Springer (I can't recall offhand), and unfortunately they only have post-2000 issues.

There are much more interesting studies that you could obtain. I have a growing list of studies that I don't have ready access to. In particular, the topical zinc studies, which I've been waiting to here from you about.

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Originally posted by: Bryan

His only personal foible is the inability to see that a cherished pet theory of his is unworkable. It's a matter of deadly PRIDE, I suppose, not a lack of intellect.

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bryan, im wondering....why do you waste so much time arguing with an irrelevant individual? his theory holds no merit, has no solution for hairloss....so time to move on.

This abstract is, in fact, nothing more than an abstract. It's abstracts of a conference published in this issue of the Journal (therefore it's in the supplements) and so it's no use ordering the "article" - you would only receive the abstract.

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Originally posted by: Bryan

Quote

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Originally posted by: TomOmasta
Does it really matter? I mean, havent we come as far as were going to get with anti-androgens , and 5-ar inhibitors... DUTASTERIDE, PROPECIA, FLURIDIL, RU5881, SPIRO, TOPICAL ESTRADIOL, etc etc etc... Is is worth even debating about and going into some topical that was used ONLY for women and that has been terminated....

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Heheheh....are we all FINALLY coming around to realizing something that Dr. Proctor has been harping about for YEARS on alt.baldspot?

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Hardly. Unfortunately, there is no direct evidence that non-antiandrogenic drugs do anything at all to curtail the balding process; it is just speculation at this point. I'm not convinced that superoxide dismutase mimetics offer any benefit beyond (or even work as well as) plain old minoxidil.

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Originally posted by: Arnie'sAccent
This abstract is, in fact, nothing more than an abstract. It's abstracts of a conference published in this issue of the Journal (therefore it's in the supplements) and so it's no use ordering the "article" - you would only receive the abstract.

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You don't know what you're talking about.

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Originally posted by: Dave001

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Originally posted by: Bryan

Quote

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Originally posted by: TomOmasta

Does it really matter? I mean, havent we come as far as were going to get with anti-androgens , and 5-ar inhibitors... DUTASTERIDE, PROPECIA, FLURIDIL, RU5881, SPIRO, TOPICAL ESTRADIOL, etc etc etc... Is is worth even debating about and going into some topical that was used ONLY for women and that has been terminated....

---

Heheheh....are we all FINALLY coming around to realizing something that Dr. Proctor has been harping about for YEARS on alt.baldspot?

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Hardly. Unfortunately, there is no direct evidence that non-antiandrogenic drugs do anything at all to curtail the balding process; it is just speculation at this point. I'm not convinced that superoxide dismutase mimetics offer any benefit beyond (or even work as well as) plain old minoxidil.

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Dr.lee stated the same thing to me via email about SOD'S....

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Originally posted by: Dave001

Quote

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Originally posted by: Arnie'sAccent
This abstract is, in fact, nothing more than an abstract. It's abstracts of a conference published in this issue of the Journal (therefore it's in the supplements) and so it's no use ordering the "article" - you would only receive the abstract.

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You don't know what you're talking about.

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Allow me to quote you:




Q]The English translation of the abstract is rather poor. Unfortunately, the institutional subscription through which I can access the Journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology does not provide coverage for years prior to 2000, and I don't know of anyone that has the full text for this article.

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Well, I DO happen to have the access rights to that journal and I DID download the pdf of everything that was published in that issue. Nothing more than conference abstracts. Also, the article is NO translation from an original german article, but the autors' own english - not everybody happens to be fluent in every language like you or your "close relative". I suggest next time you let someone know he/she doesn't know what he/she is talking about, you better explain in a more appropriate way (maybe using your relative's language knowledge) what YOU are actually talking about.

Quote

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Originally posted by: Dave001
Okay... a study that you probably have never seen. There are one or two Usenet threads in which it was mentioned.



The English translation of the abstract is rather poor. Unfortunately, the institutional subscription through which I can access the Journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology does not provide coverage for years prior to 2000, and I don't know of anyone that has the full text for this article.



Dill-Muller, D. and H. Zaun (1997). "Topical treatment of androgenetic alopecia with spironolactone." Journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology 9(Supplement 1): S31.



Abstract: Spironolactone, the aldosterone receptor antagonist, posses antiandrogenic effects by peripheral receptor inhibition and decrease of enzyme activity in the testosterone biosynthesis. We evaluated the effect of topical treatment with spironolactone (1% in Solutio Cordes®) on androgenic hair loss in women. The diagnosis has been based on clinical criteria (biparietal and/or central thinning of the scalp hair), more than 25% telogen hair in the frontal trichogram, regular endocrinology status and in some cases on punch biopsy. 60 female patients in three groups (Gr. 1: 24 patients with hemilateral monotherapy; Gr. 2: 20 patients with bilateral application and Gr. 3: 16 patients with combined systemic antiandrogen therapy) received topical treatment with 10 drops (gr. 1) spironolactone solution rsp. 20 drops (gr. 2 and 3) daily on the androgene dependent area of the scalp hair for minimum 6 months up to two years by now. Clinical status and trichogram had been controlled after 3 and 6 months. In case of objective response in group I, patients were advised in bilateral therapy. In group I 65% of the patients presented objective response and 40% of them - with early onset of spironolactone therapy - showed new hair growth. In group 2 the topical therapy results in improvement for 60% of the patients. Whereas in group 3 only 50% of the patients presented a decrease or stabilisation of their hair loss. Still an acceptable result regarding the previous long term systemic therapy without benefit. There were no changes in vital signs, e.g. hypotonia or hormonal disorders reported during the therapy. Spironolactone is an effective topical treatment for the androgenetic alopecia in women.

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Actually I am not sure if that is only the abstract. I think the supplements section contains only observation-type essays not full documented papers. I have an academic access to the journal online and can see every paper from 1995- onwards. The Supplements 1 section you are referring to contains only short abstract-length mini-studies that look more like a documented observation than anything else.

Hair4EverFreak, would you be so kind as to download that one and verify for us that there's no more available than just what's in that short "abstract"?

Bryan

Edited: 07/25/2005 at 11:18 AM by Bryan

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Originally posted by: redfox
Bryan- did that guy you speak to on the other hair loss forum mention any advancement about RU comming to market?

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You mean "marco", the guy who had talked to the French company that's developing RU? No, he apparently hasn't had any more conversations with them. However, He _did_ provide that link for us from that same company which had the interesting comparison with what must have been Propecia. Did you see that?

Bryan

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Originally posted by: Arnie'sAccent


Well, I DO happen to have the access rights to that journal and I DID download the pdf of everything that was published in that issue. Nothing more than conference abstracts. Also, the article is NO translation from an original german article, but the autors' own english - not everybody happens to be fluent in every language like you or your "close relative". I suggest next time you let someone know he/she doesn't know what he/she is talking about, you better explain in a more appropriate way (maybe using your relative's language knowledge) what YOU are actually talking about.

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Fair enough. I owe you an apology. It was not clear to me from your original post that you had firsthand verification, and when viewing the abstract from Ingeneta, there was a link to purchase the full document, so I naturally assumed that there was in fact more than just an abstract.