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Topic Title: Spironolactone kills body hair but promotes head hair?
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Created On: 01/22/2003 11:42 PM
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 01/22/2003 11:42 PM
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poet
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I have just been researching Spironolactone. I learned many women use it to get rid of unwanted body hair, like facial hair. Yet it promotes hair on the scalp. Is this because it stops DHT and testorone in general from binding to sites. Which is what kills our head hair but promotes our body hair? So these two types of hair have an inverse relationship. The one concern I have is I had body hair transplanted on the scalp, I wonder if spiro creme would stop this hair from growing.

I wonder if Dr.Lee or Dr.Woods could respond to this. I think I might stop using the spiro in the meantime.

Edited: 01/22/2003 at 11:53 PM by Hair Loss Help Moderator
 01/23/2003 01:09 AM
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global
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Good question poet, however I believe that body hair transplanted to the scalp adapts the characteristics of scalp hair, so may not be affected by spiro. but you better check with a doctor to make sure. By the way have younoticed the transplanted body hair getting longer and more "scalp hair" like?

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 01/23/2003 08:56 AM
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Bryan
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Good question poet, however I believe that body hair transplanted to the scalp adapts the characteristics of scalp hair, so may not be affected by spiro.

Uh...sorry, but body hair transplanted to the scalp does NOT adopt the characteristics of scalp hair. Transplanted hair is "donor-dominant", which means that it maintains its original characteristics from its original location.

In general, spiro might indeed adversely affect body hair transplanted to the scalp to some degree, but I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Brya
 01/23/2003 09:02 AM
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TomOmasta
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Tha being said, then would Propecia also harm this hair? UGH, we just cant win. i would say just stay on Minox with Retin-A until you find out for sure. Im going to have to say that Spiro would kill that body hair that was transplanted.
 01/23/2003 09:08 AM
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poet
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Yea I have dropped the spiro. I am still however going to use Xandrox which has Azaelic acid which diminishes DHT, which body hair seems to thrive on, however different than Spiro it just interrupts the conversion of testorone to DHT via aplha reductase. It seems likely body hair can survive without DHT and just testostorne. Spiro actually changes the DHT to estrogen which kills body hair. I am going to try rubbing some spiro on my right knee and Xandrox on my left to see the effects. My belief is the Xandrox will not hurt it but the spiro should make it stop growing. It is feasible propecia could damage body hair transplanted on the head as well.

All my hair seems to be coming in the same so I assume the body hair is becoming somewhat scalp hair like, but its hard to differentiate so this can't be seen as conclusive evidence.

Edited: 01/23/2003 at 09:14 AM by Hair Loss Help Moderator
 01/23/2003 09:20 AM
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neutron
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Wait...could this be a way to thin out facial hair...for awhile i have been looking for a way to thin out my beard...maybe get spiro try it on both scalp and face...any opinions...
 01/23/2003 09:24 AM
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global
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<< Good question poet, however I believe that body hair transplanted to the scalp adapts the characteristics of scalp hair, so may not be affected by spiro.
Uh...sorry, but body hair transplanted to the scalp does NOT adopt the characteristics of scalp hair. Transplanted hair is "donor-dominant", which means that it maintains its original characteristics from its original location.
>>



Bryan, check out the home page of this site, there is an article about Dr. Woods transplant technique using body hair which states that it does adopt the characteristics of scalp hair, i reproduce part of it here:

Secondly, the discovery that body hair that is relocated to the scalp adopts the characteristics of the surrounding hair and actually grows significantly longer than it did in its original location.

These amazing discoveries are the most significant discoveries in the field of hair transplantation. This now means that patients whose outcomes were previously limited by depleted donor sites, now have access to thousands of follicles previously considered unavailable. Follicles can be taken from the chest, back, legs and anywhere on the body.

According to Dr Woods, two of his patients showed an amazing increase in the length of their body hair when it was transplanted into their scalps.

In one patient his body hair originally grew to 2.75" (7 cm) in length. However after 22 months of it being transplanted to his scalp, the length of the hair in some cases has more than doubled and is now between 4.92" (12.5 cm) and 6.29" (16 cm) in length. [see story]

In another patient his original chest hair growth was 1.25" (3.17 cm). After only 10 months of it being transplanted to his scalp, it now measures 2.5" (6.35 cm). [see story]

In both cases the transplanted body hair has taken on similar characteristics to the normal scalp hair. This discovery has recently been verified in a published study done in Korea. [see study]







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 01/23/2003 10:16 AM
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Peter Mac
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For a long time I believed DHT caused excessive body hair growth while reducing scalp hair. However, this needs to be studied quite a bit more. There just isn't any conclusive evidence. Conclusive evidence is a medical study with proper controls (double blind, placebo controlled, etc.)

Read this for an opinion that states Propecia will NOT affect body hair:
http://www.keratin.com/ac/baldnesstreatments/propecia/011propeciaandbeardgrowth.shtml

Poet, I think this is an excellent research topic. The study should be called:
"The effects of Propecia on body hair transplants to the scalp"

The researchers should transplant only body hair to a scalp region for a hundred or so test patients, put them on Propecia and watch what happens for a year.
 01/23/2003 02:14 PM
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LetsGetHairy
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<< For a long time I believed DHT caused excessive body hair growth while reducing scalp hair. However, this needs to be studied quite a bit more. There just isn't any conclusive evidence. Conclusive evidence is a medical study with proper controls (double blind, placebo controlled, etc.)



Read this for an opinion that states Propecia will NOT affect body hair:

http://www.keratin.com/ac/baldnesstreatments/propecia/011propeciaandbeardgrowth.shtml
>>



That's odd, in my case I know for certain that I have far less stomach hair since starting finasteride. I've always had light body hair, but my stomach hair used to be much thicker and longer. Now I have very thin and short stomach hairs. Most only being 3mm to 1cm, whereas they all used to be closer to 1".

Another oddity is that most of these follicles/roots have two hair growing from them. They look like little v's all over my stomach.

Is this some freakish reaction that should concern me? My other body hair regions are pretty much the same as ever, but the stomach is screwy.

BTW, I'm one of the lucky ones who's had mixed results from fin. Front has recessed and thinned like never before, vertex and mid-anterior have maintained and filled in some.
 01/23/2003 02:37 PM
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Peter Mac
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Here's a source that says DHT is responsible for coarse body hair:
http://www.jennifer-o.com/Hormones/m2f/finasteride.htm

I could probably spend all day finding arguments for and against this. I'm not interested in doing that.

There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that DHT causes body hair to grow. As such, theoretically taking Propecia or another DHT ihibitor will reduce body hair. We can endlessly supply anecdotal evidence, but we really need double blind, placebo controlled studies.

There is so much we don't know. Consider what we're doing in the past few years:
1. We're transplanting follicles in follicular units.
2. We're extracting follicles in follicular units one by one
3. We're moving body hair to the scalp, previously thought impossible.
4. The body hair is taking on the characteristics of the scalp hair while not losing its DHT immunity
5. We're taking DHT inhibitors to suppress the DHT in our blood--which might have grown the body hair that we're now using to transplant to the head.

Can something bizarre happen here? of course it can. There is so much we don't know about our hormones and genes and so much we can learn. Unfortunately trial and error is sometimes the only way we can find out. Slow, meticulous, documented studies are the best tests.
 01/23/2003 02:42 PM
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poet
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Peter Mac,

we could speculate all day. You are right. A Double Blind study needs to be done. For now I'm not going to be overly aggresive in treating the DHT on my scalp, as it ironically may be helping about half the hair up their to grow. The question is which characteristics does this body hair take on? If it retains the fact it thrives on DHT, using nothing but maybe minox on your scalp would be the best to promote this hair. If it takes on the characterstics of texture length and benefiting from less DHT, then using propecia spiro etc would be a good idea. The truth is we don't know. I'm going to do a limited experiment with Spiro and Xandrox on my legs, but this won't tell me if these hairs were moved to my head how they would react.
 01/23/2003 05:12 PM
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LetsGetHairy
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<< For now I'm not going to be overly aggresive in treating the DHT on my scalp, as it ironically may be helping about half the hair up their to grow. >>



Hey Poet, why do you think dht might be helping some hair? Have you read anything about this?

I think the same may be true for me. I'll be stopping fin, and getting on Dr.Lee's minox soon to see if I can halt the frontal loss.

I'm also just waiting for my B6 to arrive so I can try Zixon, but I thought it's originator said that zix inhibits scalp dht. Maybe I should only use it on areas that did well on finasteride?

I'd appreciate any opinions.

LGH! -OOPS! I shoulda read more carefully, didn't realize you had a body hair HT. Sorry!



Edited: 01/23/2003 at 05:27 PM by Hair Loss Help Moderator
 01/23/2003 05:53 PM
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poet
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Letsgethairy,

please don't mistake my situation for the typical one. I have had 4 body to scalp hair transplants. This type of hair benefits from DHT. I am definitely not your average hair loss sufferer for this reason.
 01/23/2003 09:30 PM
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Peter Mac
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maybe it benefits from DHT. Maybe it takes on new characteristics when it gets moved to the head. It will be interesting to see how well it grows!
 01/23/2003 11:16 PM
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Bryan
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Bryan, check out the home page of this site, there is an article about Dr. Woods transplant technique using body hair which states that it does adopt the characteristics of scalp hair, i reproduce part of it here: [snip]

That's very interesting about the greater hair lengths...I hadn't seen that before. However, I had assumed that you were referring to the hair follicles' response to androgens after transplantation. That's definitely what _I_ was talking about. I'm certain that THAT doesn't change.

Brya
 01/23/2003 11:25 PM
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Bryan
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For a long time I believed DHT caused excessive body hair growth while reducing scalp hair. However, this needs to be studied quite a bit more. There just isn't any conclusive evidence. Conclusive evidence is a medical study with proper controls (double blind, placebo controlled, etc.)

Gee...it looks pretty conclusive to _me_! You aren't by any chance a disciple of Stephen Foote, are you?

Bryan
 01/23/2003 11:36 PM
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Bryan
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There is so much we don't know. Consider what we're doing in the past few years:
1. We're transplanting follicles in follicular units.
2. We're extracting follicles in follicular units one by one
3. We're moving body hair to the scalp, previously thought impossible.


It wasn't thought impossible, just impractical.

4. The body hair is taking on the characteristics of the scalp hair while not losing its DHT immunity
5. We're taking DHT inhibitors to suppress the DHT in our blood--which might have grown the body hair that we're now using to transplant to the head.

Can something bizarre happen here? of course it can. There is so much we don't know about our hormones and genes and so much we can learn.


I'm not sure what you're saying here...the only unusual thing in the above five points is #4, regarding the length of transplanted hairs. Everything else is straightforward.

Bryan
 01/24/2003 02:02 AM
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global
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Bryan, re: transplanted body hair's response to androgens.

This is very interesting and shows that we dont really understand what governs hair growth. It seems logical that the body hair would not change its response to DHT, but somehow it has changed its response to something controlling its length. But what controls length? is it DHT or some other hormone, or some other factor? Any way I suppose it is possible for a body hair to change its response to DHT after transplantation, I wish a Poet would ask Dr. Lee or Dr. Woods about this.

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 01/24/2003 09:23 AM
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Peter Mac
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Bryan,

It looks pretty conclusive to you? Show me one double blind, placebo controlled study to prove it. Anecdotal evidence from a few people isn't enough scientific evidence.
 01/24/2003 10:09 AM
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Bryan
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It looks pretty conclusive to you? Show me one double blind, placebo controlled study to prove it. Anecdotal evidence from a few people isn't enough scientific evidence.

I want to be sure I understand what you're saying: are you doubting the basic, fundamental premise that androgens have opposite effects on scalp hair and body hair?

Bryan
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