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Topic Title: Propecia + Saw Palmetto = the perfect team?
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Created On: 10/06/2002 10:40 AM
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 10/06/2002 10:40 AM
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hairnoevil
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Could taking these two daily be the perfect team up?

I've been looking around the internet and it appears that studies show that Saw P does reduce DHT but ALSO reduces Testosterone by the same amount.
So in theory taking Saw P could balance the increased Testosterone from taking Propecia and reduce the side effects.

Any comments?

 10/06/2002 11:28 AM
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arfy
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I think Saw Palmetto has been over-rated for hair loss. It seems to look good "in theory" but I hardly ever hear about guys saying it's giving them good results. Maybe a couple of times, tops... I hear lots of guys saying Propecia works though.

A couple of weeks ago I was listening to The Bald Truth on the radio, and Spencer said he will be leaving out Saw Palmetto, in the updated version of his book. He no longer recommends using it, apparently.

I think Saw Palmetto and Propecia overlap, as far as intended effects, and guys should save their money for the product that really seems to work (Propecia). Also, just because something is "natural" (Saw Palmetto) doesn't mean "no side effects".

My 3 cents...
 10/06/2002 11:31 AM
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Kris
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yeah i don't think much of s/p, i never see any proof that it does much for hair loss as an oral,
 10/06/2002 10:08 PM
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Hair of the Dog
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I previously posted the following:

I started my regime roughly three months ago. I've noticed an increase in hair quality and a noticeable reduction of hairloss after two months on a regime consisting of saw palmetto (160 mgs), biotin (2500 mcgs), minoxidil 5% (1x per day), GNC multi-vitamin, Nizoral (3x per week) and L-lysine (500 mgs 2x per day). If you research saw palmetto on this site, you will notice that most do not believe that it is effective for hairloss. However, you will find that some swear by it. I have to believe that it is effective for me. I don't think that I have anything else in my regime that could have reduced the fall out this significantly. If you're going to try it, be sure to get the berry EXTRACT and it must contain 85-95% fatty acids and sterols.

 10/07/2002 03:59 PM
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chromedome
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Can someone verify that saw palmetto reduces testosterone? I've never heard this before. If so this is bad news for me. I've been taking saw palmetto for years and I think it helps because my dad was completely bald at my age and I've held on to some of my hair. I only want to target dht, but if it reduces testosterone that's not good. I don't "feel" that I have less testosterone, but I would still be very discouraged to find out if this is true.
 10/07/2002 09:15 PM
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HereWeGo
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I never liked Saw Palmetto

But thats just me

some people I guess have success with it.

Good Luck

Edited: 10/07/2002 at 09:17 PM by Hair Loss Help Moderator
 10/07/2002 09:23 PM
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a7667
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i guess saw palmetto is kind of working for me...but i was still being plagued by dandruff...may go to shave it to at least to keep it under control...i guess spooky in this site is suggesting people to use it too who at least showing result, kind of encouraging....

take care, God bless~ =)
 10/08/2002 12:49 AM
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Troymaclure
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the reduce in Testosterone by SP is also believed to cause an increase in Estrogen...so just because something reduces Testosterone doesn't necessarily make it the perfect choice
 10/08/2002 10:31 AM
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chromedome
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I could not find any information that it reduces testosterone, only that it inhibits testosterone from being converted into dht. Please tell me where you read this.
 10/08/2002 10:59 AM
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hairnoevil
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Hi Chromedome, I found the info at http://www.supernutritionusa.com/saw.palmetto.2001.pdf

I'm certainly putting my faith in SP alone for a while and I'll see how it goes. I think the reason why it doesnt work for some people is because it simply doesnt 'destroy' enough DHT to control their hair loss.
 10/08/2002 01:20 PM
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chromedome
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thanks hairnoevil, that's the first time I've read this. I'm going to check my hormone levels and we'll see how they come out.
 10/08/2002 03:43 PM
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against wind
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I found it veeeeeery strange that saw palmeto will reduce dht and instead of INCREASING testerone as the logic reaction ( like in finastride ) is REDUCING it ( and by 40 % !!!). With all the respect i think we need to cheack it a little further. I dont buy that study so rapid , no sir.

I know i saw studies telling the other way around , i will try to find them.
meanwhile peace to all.
 10/10/2002 12:54 PM
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amazed
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i have been doing some studying on Saw Palmetto. I will post a few links once i find them again... i visited soooooo many sites.

from what i've read it seems most important to combine saw palemetto with a small amount of zinc, vitamin B6, and azleic acid. also to obtain the highest quality extracts, and always take vitamins in capsule form if possible, for highest potency. also i think using it topically in addition will help. American Crew revitalize shampoo actually has Saw Palmetto in it, which i just found out last night.

i have read several studies that claim Saw Palmetto inhibits both type 1 and 2 dht, unlike finasteride which only inhibits type 2. (if you wanna get technical finasteride supposedly does inhibit type 1 just 10 times less than it does 2) they also claimed it was more potent than finasteride. not to mention almost zero chance of side effects. there is a slight chance because it does stimulate hormonal change, but since it was designed by nature not man the chances are much less of any type of reaction or other unwanted side effects. the only real side effect i saw listed anywhere, was that some got a slightly upset stomach after taking it.

some people deny that it works, however i've seen a lot of evidence that it does.

i'll find the links and post them as soon as i can.
 10/10/2002 01:00 PM
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amazed
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oh yeah, also i forgot. There seems to be some confusion i've noticed after looking at many sites. There are a few Saw Palmetto extracts. (or at least a couple)
What you really need to take is the Saw Palmetto Berry Extract, which is also called
"Serenoa repens"
That is the ONLY part of the plant that has proven to be effective against DHT.

I'm gonna start smoking it today too. (okay that was a joke, but everything else was fact)



Edited: 10/10/2002 at 01:05 PM by Hair Loss Help Moderator
 10/10/2002 02:11 PM
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a7667
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so how much should i take?

is this one alright?

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jhtml?PRODID=358029&CATID=100166

i saw some people taking over 700mg, while some taking 320mg once a week or so, so how to determine how much should i take?

i have been taking 320mg for a month, then 480mg a week ago and now i just started taking about 860mg (i read some where in one of the chapter for Crinagen last night, it said that people should take 1g of it to have result....so i kind of jumped up in between 320mg and 1 g)

when will i see result?
 10/10/2002 02:43 PM
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amazed
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yes that link to walgreens looks decent. that is the stuff i'm talking about.
For maximum efficacy, i think its necessary to take a small amount of zinc, b6, and azleic acid. (capsules for high potency) I say that because its what I consistently see as a combination to effectively prevent DHT formation. The Saw Palmetto alone isn't the key (i don't believe), but it is a major part of it.
Its hard to decide what amount is correct, from what I've seen its very different for each individual. I would expect 320mg daily is enough, but who really knows? 1 gram seems a little steep, but I haven't researched it enough to say for sure. (nor have I tried 1 gram) I do know that the chances of side effects seem to be minimal at best.
I'm taking 160mg daily right now. (in addition to other supplements)
I wouldn't expect immediate results, like anything it takes time. i'm just watching to see if i notice any major hairloss/shedding increase while taking it. just remember they say losing 50-100 hairs a day is normal.


Edited: 10/10/2002 at 02:43 PM by Hair Loss Help Moderator
 10/10/2002 07:17 PM
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amazed
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Also noticed the type of B6 to take internally is very important. B6 Pyridoxal 5 phosphate is the best stuff to work with Zinc, but is less common than B6 Pyridoxine. I acidentally purchased the latter, but they strongly recommend B6 Pyridoxal instead.


Edited: 10/10/2002 at 09:49 PM by Hair Loss Help Moderator
 10/11/2002 12:53 AM
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Pete
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Hi, you could either take Propecia or SP but wouldnt advise to take them together. If your looking for an alternative you could try Epilobium but depending on age or if you have declining T this may not be enough alone to stop hairloss.If this the case you may need ANOTHER supplement to raise T whilst reducing DHT and Estradiol.

Epilobium is a plant used in Central Europe for the treatment of prostate disorders. Research has shown it to inhibit the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by activity of 5-alpha-reductase and aromatase((the group of enzymes that catalyze the conversion of testosterone to estradiol) ), two enzymes which are involved in the development of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). The main polyphenols responsible for the inhibition of the these enzymes have been identified as oenothein A and oenothein B.

References:

(1) [Isolation of the antiphlogistic principle from Epilobium angustifolium]. Hiermann A; Reidlinger M; Juan H; Sametz W. Planta Med, 57(4):357-60 1991 Aug.

(2) Inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase and aromatase by the ellagitannins oenothein A and oenothein B from Eqilobium species. Ducrey B; Marston A; Gohring S; Hartmann RW; Hostettmann K.. Planta Med, 63(2):111-1 1997 Apr.

(3) Determination of oenothein B as the active 5-alpha-reductase-inhibiting principle of the folk medicine Epilobium parviflorum. Lesuisse D, et al. J Nat Prod, 59(5):490-2 1996 May.

(4) Polyphenols from Bulgarian medicinal plants with anti-infectious activity. Ivancheva S; Manolova N; Serkedjieva J; Dimov V; Ivanovska N. Basic Life Sci, 59():717-28 1992.



Edited: 10/11/2002 at 11:00 PM by Hair Loss Help Moderator
 10/11/2002 08:33 AM
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a7667
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Epilobium? where can you get that? how much?

by the way, thanks amazed~
 10/11/2002 10:11 AM
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chromedome
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a7667, about the brand of saw palmetto you use, be very careful. There are many products out there for saw palmetto and most of it is not potent enough. Beware of ingredients that saw "saw palmetto powder". This is simply the palmetto root dried up and crushed. Do not buy these products. Buy ones that have "saw palmetto extract". The extract is pure and is very concentrated with the active ingredient. It requires a more sophisticated process to make it and it is much better. I am a believer in it and have been using it for years. Although some jerk will probably post something sarcastic and unscientific after this post as they tend to do when you talk about something they don't agree with. I use the brand called permixon on www.800hairnow.com, I know this one uses extract.
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