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Topic Title: I quit minoxidil 4 months ago and have a question
Topic Summary: And yes going through the dreaded shed
Created On: 06/02/2013 04:40 PM
Status: Post and Reply
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 06/04/2013 10:25 AM
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Pieman2005
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Minoxidil puts more hair in the growth phase and makes it thicker. It does not interfere with the balding process. It gives you an "offset" of hair loss which peaks on average in 4 months (sometimes earlier sometimes later), and then hair loss resumes at the same rate as before.


D2, does this mean after 4 months of minoxidil use the benefit from it will decline? So if you used it for 5 years, it would never be as good as it was that 4th month or so?

-------------------------
-.5mg fin daily 12/12 - 9/14
-1.25mg fin daily 9/14 - 12/15
-.5mg dut weekly since 12/15
-minox 5% 1x daily since 5/13
 06/04/2013 10:29 AM
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dogs3
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DJA, another question I have is what are you going to do after a couple months? You keep saying you want to give it a couple months to see what happens.

But let's say that you fail to return to your baseline before minox and keep on losing more hair. Are you going to try any other meds?

Remember, now that minox is all out of your system what your hair does from here on out you cannot blame on minox. Like decadetwo indicated, you may have a very aggressive case of MPB and minox simply failed to stop it.
 06/04/2013 10:36 AM
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DecadeTwo
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Originally posted by: DjA
I wanna post a pic but i'm too lazy. I might make one soon. But i'll tell you that my crown looks great.

Let me just say this. Your conclusions are obviously more based on experience than mine.


I'm basing my conclusions on studies like the one that come from the graph above, and decades of clinical experiences of doctors treating men with minoxidil.

Originally posted by: DjA
But I find it so strange how you are not just basing premature conclusions while i'm within, what is proven to be a post shedding phase, but I also find it strange how you're not asking me to wait till the shedding phase is over.


I'm not asking you to get back on minoxidl.

Stop for a year, start again for five months, stop for three months, start again for a year, stop for a year, and you will be exactly where your hypothetical identical twin is who never took minoxidil.

Start again, and you'll have a little more hair than him.

Originally posted by: DjA
You seem like a clever person. Clever enough to realize that most people that come here aren't very knowledgeable about the things you are talking about. Yet you keep using abbreviations as if I should understand what you are talking about.



Sorry, I forget.

AGA is andro-genetic alopecia, which is what causes MPHL (male pattern hair loss).

Originally posted by: DjA
To me it comes off strange. With 3000 posts, why aren't you trying to level with the average person? Just a question out of curiosity.


I assume everyone knows the very basics, but you are right that this isn't always the case.

Originally posted by: DjA
Honestly if I were in a position with the knowledge that you have, i'd probably say to others to wait till the post minox shedding is over to see what the actual base line is. It would make more sense when a post minox shedding phase exists in the first place. Something I see literally everywhere being said, the only difference is that the people who are opening the threads, never come back to inform their status after more than 4 months.


Again, I'm not telling you to wait or not to wait. With no good baseline pictures it won't matter anyway. Hair loss self-assessment is notoriously unreliable. Whether or not you believe something will work seems to influence perception too much, for starters.

All I'm saying is that minoxidil did not ruin your hair. Any shed beyond where you would have been today without minoxidil is temporary.

For the record, I don't think there is much of a point in using minoxidil alone to treat AGA in this day an age. Even those who benefit most will continue to lose hair in the long-term just as they would have without it, just with more hair to work with.

I'd save the money.

Originally posted by: DjA
But let's summarize it in short. What you meant is that my hair would have looked the same had I not taken minox, and that the balding on the scalp/vertex area I had after the 5.5 months was because it was going through a shedding phase to grow thicker hair? I still find it strange that my scalp vertex area still looks great during this post shed compared to any shed I had during the usage of minox.


All I'm saying is that if you are below where you would have been had you never taken minoxidil, then don't worry: it is temporary, and not a big deal at all.

Either you have AGA or you don't. Based on your description there is no way of knowing. That said if you have obvious Male Pattern Hair Loss (also known as MPHL and sometime MPB which stands for Male Pattern Baldness), then we know what is going on:

You have a form of alopecia (hair loss) caused by androgens (male hormones, specifically DHT) and genetics, which is known as AndroGenetic Aloepcia (sometimes abbreviated as AGA).

95% of men with hair loss have this. The other 5% could be a lot of things, and usually don't look like men with AGA. For instance, men with alopecia totalis lose all their hair from head to toe.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.

Edited: 06/04/2013 at 10:51 AM by DecadeTwo
 06/04/2013 10:43 AM
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DecadeTwo
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Originally posted by: Pieman2005

Minoxidil puts more hair in the growth phase and makes it thicker. It does not interfere with the balding process. It gives you an "offset" of hair loss which peaks on average in 4 months (sometimes earlier sometimes later), and then hair loss resumes at the same rate as before.


D2, does this mean after 4 months of minoxidil use the benefit from it will decline? So if you used it for 5 years, it would never be as good as it was that 4th month or so?


Are you trying to start a flame war? Lol

Let me defer to Vera Price, the researcher who conducted the study from which I pulled that graph. Here's what she said in the Discussion section of that study:

"The placebo and untreated groups appear to behave similarly, showing a steady decrease in hair weight from baseline over the 120 weeks. This decrease can be taken as the 'normal' hair loss for this group of subjects and amounts to about a 6% decrease in weight per year. The 2% and 5% minoxidil groups appear to decrease with nearly the same average downward slope, once the peak rate of growth has been passed. The treatments appear to induce a consistent increased growth offset (above placebo or untreated groups) of roughly 25% for the 2% minoxidil treatment and 35% for the 5% minoxidil treatment, an average increase of about 30%, maintained during the 96 weeks of treatment. These growth effects represent a long-term retardation of the hair loss process by both 5% and 2% topical minoxidil treatments


So she observed that men saw an "offset" of hair loss, which they kept throughout the study. They didn't stop losing hair, but they had more hair to work with.

DjA this part is for you:

After treatment was stopped at week 96, the 5% and 2% minoxidil groups showed a rapid loss of hair weight and decreased hair counts....By 24 weeks after treatment had been stopped, the weight and number counts of the treated groups decreased to become similar to those of the placebo and untreated groups, showing the growth offset produced by topical minoxidil. This loss of treatment-stimulated hair growth is expected since treatment does not alter the underlying genetic predisposition for androgenetic alopecia."


Vera Price thinks minoxidil discontinuation shows you the offset of hair loss produced by topical minoxidil, so maybe that is what you are seeing.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.
 06/04/2013 11:19 AM
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DjA
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Thanks I apreciate it. So we're not sure. I think it's better to just check some pictures then

I will say that I dont have pictures anymore from the period when I was using minox. I got one for when I was using it less than a month and my hair didnt look very different.

Anyway here's pictures of when I still wasnt using minox

[edited out]


I actually have never looked at a comparison like this before. Wow... What happened. So depressing. Let me add that I don't have a picture during the time when I quit. But please believe me when I say that all the hair on the scalp was gone. It looks better in that picture I made
Originally posted by: dogs3

DJA, another question I have is what are you going to do after a couple months? You keep saying you want to give it a couple months to see what happens.



But let's say that you fail to return to your baseline before minox and keep on losing more hair. Are you going to try any other meds?



Remember, now that minox is all out of your system what your hair does from here on out you cannot blame on minox. Like decadetwo indicated, you may have a very aggressive case of MPB and minox simply failed to stop it.
I'll rock milimeter look. It looks fine

Edited: 06/07/2013 at 04:51 PM by DjA
 06/04/2013 11:29 AM
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DecadeTwo
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Definitely looks like AGA, but you should see a derm just to be safe. He will detect signs of miniaturization.

It's hard to compare with baseline minox pics, since they are lower res (only 0.5 megapixels), farther away, different light, etc, and don't show the top of your head.

Really, your baseline minox pics may be somewhat misleading, though I do see some apparent thinning behind the hair line, so I assume there was more, which is why you started on minox.

Your current pic is the only one of the top of your head, in focus, and even that is only 1MP and shows more wall than scalp.

From now on, pick a standard type of pic to take, and match it as closely as possible every time: lighting, hair length, hair style, camera, etc.

And use a 5MP or higher camera from closer! Even phones have them these days.


By the way, if this is AGA, which it certainly looks like, and you lost as much hair as you pics imply in six months, then if you chose to treat it you have only a small window in order to get on a good regimen before further cosmetic deterioration which you won't be able to reverse.

If you chose to treat it, there is a good chance you will regrow a lot of the lost hair, since it was lost recently.

There is no right choice, and I'm not pushing you in either direction. There is nothing wrong with being bald. My best friends are bald, my father is bald, my uncle is bald, I literally love bald people.

That said, if you chose to treat it, I would recommend at least finasteride and a topical antiandrogen or two. You look to be in the 1 percentile of hair loss aggressiveness, I'd venture to guess.

I gotta run.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.

Edited: 06/04/2013 at 11:42 AM by DecadeTwo
 06/04/2013 11:41 AM
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DjA
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Well the pics pre minox were obviously not taken to capture hairloss. But the difference is huge either way.

I wish I could be sure if its the result of post minox shed or permanent. It's really bad when I look at it. It never looked this bad. Not even 2 months ago, when I quit minox for 2 months and my scalp hair regrew and started to look nice again. I thought it could only get better since then. But it has only gone backwards.

Anyway I will check a derm. This back to back talk is not gonna work for me. I need some clear analyzing. One thing's for sure, no amount of hairloss will bring me back to using meds.
 06/04/2013 11:44 AM
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DecadeTwo
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It's important to see a derm in order to rule out other causes of hair loss which may be more serious than AGA, especially in light of how fast you appear to be losing your hair.

Gotta run.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.
 06/04/2013 11:53 AM
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DjA
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Thanks for everything. Tbh I do see what you are talking about that I was thinning in some places. But honestly I think minoxidil was partially the cause of this, post minox shed or not. Everyone in my family got a receding line and some thinning eventually, but not to this extent. Also wanna say the spots where thinning is most apparent, is also where I applied minox

It could however also be other things that have caused it. Like stress maybe. I had gotten out of a tough relationship, and this pic http://i1181.photobucket.com/a...metails/IMG_2446-1.jpg was taken a month or 2 after that. I dunno if that's what caused it, but it's another possibility. Do tell what you think when you're back.

Edited: 06/04/2013 at 12:10 PM by DjA
 06/04/2013 12:17 PM
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DecadeTwo
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I really do gotta go, but I'm procrastinating work, so here we go:

In that pic you took your hair line is "shaped", meaning the stylist purposely tried to make it look like there is no temple/hairline recession. It looks like you recently got a hair cut. I'm guessing you are at a graduation ceremony last summer or something?

That said even in that 0.5 MP pic, of which only 0.025 MP is of your hair, there appears to be clear thinning behind the hair line and into the mid-scalp.

When was that taken exactly? How long before minox? Sorry if you already answered.

Your family gives you an idea, but unless you have an identical twin you can't tell for sure based on that.

Stress can cause hair loss, but it has to be a lot of stress for a long time, and hair loss caused by stress is not in the male pattern, so while it could have made things worse, what you say and what you show really points to aggressive AGA.

Like I said above, if that's the case and you chose to treat it, there is a very good chance you will have success in at least keeping what you have, but then again there is nothing wrong with going bald. Most guys seem to get over it entirely pretty soon after visible hair loss appears. The guys who stick around and treat it, and read the forums all day, and stress about every hair in the sink probably suffer just as much if not more.

Then again the guys who lose a lot of hair and then try to grow it all back might have it the worst. If you do stick around as your hair gets worse, and you see other people having success in keeping hair and regrowing some, then you might start kicking yourself, so it's best to make an unemotional decision, and move on.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.

Edited: 06/04/2013 at 12:26 PM by DecadeTwo
 06/04/2013 12:41 PM
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DjA
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The picture was taken a month or two before I started using minoxidil. Not a graduation. Just chilling outside in most of the pics.

How big are the chances that this could be simply a post minox shed? I have been constantly cutting my hair short since I quit minoxidil. On the day I quit, the hair looked similar to now, but nowhere "this" bad.

After 2 months my hair started looking great again and my crown regrew again when it was bald on the day I decided to quit. It was starting to look more like pre minox, but with still with a lesser hairline.

I just don't know what to think. It seems odd that the worst state my hair is in, happens in a so called post quitting minox shed. Yet I am at a point being convinced that it could be more. Does a post minox shed never look this bad? It's so strange how spots I had been avoiding minox, have thicker hair than the ones minox was usually applied on. You can't see it in the picture, but there's like a vertical line that goes from my crown towards the hairline through the scalp. That whole line is bald/thin and coincidentally its also where i'd specifically apply the minox. Same goes for the curve that goes from the left temple to the right temple. It's like a cross. Here a quick paint drawing to show what I mean

http://i1181.photobucket.com/a...wesometails/sadsad.png

Edited: 06/04/2013 at 01:05 PM by DjA
 06/04/2013 01:43 PM
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DecadeTwo
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Originally posted by: DjA
The picture was taken a month or two before I started using minoxidil. Not a graduation. Just chilling outside in most of the pics.

How big are the chances that this could be simply a post minox shed?


It can't "simply" be that. 0 percent chance. You may be slightly worse off than you would have been had you never used minox temporarily, but the post minox shed cannot cause anywhere near that much hair loss.

Originally posted by: DjA
I have been constantly cutting my hair short since I quit minoxidil. On the day I quit, the hair looked similar to now, but nowhere "this" bad.


Any shedding below where you would naturally have been at this point had you never taken minox should be done in the next few months. You say you've noticed improvement already? Then it might be done already.

Also, if you do have AGA, and if it's as aggressive as it seems, you'll probably lose some hair naturally over the next three months, so you may never be better off than today.

The next two or three months will tell, but I would not realistically expect to stop minox and see an overall improvement in hair quality.

We a have D- quality baseline pic now, and you say you see stubble, so let's see what the next 4 to 12 weeks brings.

Originally posted by: DjA
After 2 months my hair started looking great again and my crown regrew again when it was bald on the day I decided to quit. It was starting to look more like pre minox, but with still with a lesser hairline.


Sheds are diffuse, and do not cause bald spots. Mionox sheds should not cause hair line recession, which is essentially a frontal bald spot. Noticing hair line recession on this scale of time also suggests aggressive AGA.

Originally posted by: DjA
I just don't know what to think. It seems odd that the worst state my hair is in, happens in a so called post quitting minox shed. Yet I am at a point being convinced that it could be more. Does a post minox shed never look this bad?


Post minox sheds are only very bad when people respond great to minox, and regrow a ton of hair.

Originally posted by: DjA
It's so strange how spots I had been avoiding minox, have thicker hair than the ones minox was usually applied on. You can't see it in the picture, but there's like a vertical line that goes from my crown towards the hairline through the scalp. That whole line is bald/thin and coincidentally its also where i'd specifically apply the minox. Same goes for the curve that goes from the left temple to the right temple. It's like a cross. Here a quick paint drawing to show what I mean.

http://i1181.photobucket.com/a...wesometails/sadsad.png


Minox works beyond where you apply it. Some women have to stop using minox on their scalp when their foreheads start growing hair.

There are many patterns for hair loss, and it's not odd for guys to lose hair center to outsides. Your diffuse thinning seems to be worse in the center and front, which is not weird.

Of course, only a derm or HT doc can tell you for sure if it's AGA. They will look at your scalp under magnification for the hallmark symptom of miniaturized hair.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.

Edited: 06/04/2013 at 01:52 PM by DecadeTwo
 06/04/2013 01:49 PM
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DecadeTwo
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It's really much more likely that you were losing hair in spite of minoxidil, and not because of it.

Minoxidil alone will not do anything for a guy who's destined to lose a lot of hair very quickly.

It has no effect on the androgenic cause of AGA.

Perception and self-assessment is notoriously unreliable. It's important to take good baseline pictures now, and every so often again.

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.
 06/04/2013 01:58 PM
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DjA
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Thanks for everything D2. I was gonna wait at least a month before I went to the derm. I was so sure that this was simply a post minox shed and would get better eventually. But I will have to go sooner.

Not gonna lie. I've never seen my hair like this. It really looked like it was improving when I cut my hair 2 months ago. Sigh

Anyway thanks again everyone. I'll still keep this thread updated when I got stuff to share. Till then, i'll kind of have to process this through my system, because I would lie if it didn't upset me a bit.

Just one last question. Does wearing a cap cause hairloss? Cuz I am wearing it a lot lately
 06/04/2013 02:07 PM
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DecadeTwo
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Cap is no problem. It might even help by preventing sunburn as you lose your natural scalp UV protection (hair).

-------------------------
NW < 2 since 1999

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
--Alan I. Leshner

Correlation does not imply causation.
--Logic

When you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.
--Stevie Wonder

I'm not an MD, and I'm not a hair loss expert.
 06/04/2013 02:33 PM
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Pieman2005
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Originally posted by: DecadeTwo




Are you trying to start a flame war? Lol





No.. not at all. I don't know how it came off that way, I was genuinely curious!

-------------------------
-.5mg fin daily 12/12 - 9/14
-1.25mg fin daily 9/14 - 12/15
-.5mg dut weekly since 12/15
-minox 5% 1x daily since 5/13
 06/04/2013 02:57 PM
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DontLetItFallOut
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@DjA When did you first noticed the frontal recession? How long was the interval from nw0 to your pre minox nw? That could give a hint about the aggressiveness of your loss, though not super reliable.
Do you still lose hair? At what rate? That`s another hint, but I guess with hair that short it almost impossible to count.
I personally don`t want to believe one could experience so sudden loss, considering your before photos where you seem to have pretty decent hair. But that`s just me, only an expert and time can tell.

Edited: 06/04/2013 at 03:05 PM by DontLetItFallOut
 06/05/2013 01:34 PM
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DjA
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The frontal recession is something I had noticed around the end of summer 2012. So around august. I started using minoxidil from october. And stuff just kept going bad from then. When I went through the minox shed, a lot of hair just dissapeared, and it never came back. I decided to stick with it for 6 month tops. But then I started losing hair on my crown + a bit on the scalp. Hair just kept dissapearing during the minox period. And exactly when I quit, maybe a month later my hair started to look better than it had since the minox shed. A month after that I could safely say that my hair had recovered, and while it didn't look like pre minox, I was fine with how it was. So this was 2 months after quitting minox. The hair on my crown, all of it had returned too.

FAst forward it to now, and my hair is looking terrible then ever. I would really wish it would be the post quit minox shed. Because as i've said in previous posts. The spots where I am balding, are the exact spots where i've specifically put emphasis on with the minox drops. It looks similar to the day that I quit, but its worse
 06/07/2013 03:22 PM
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DjA
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Bumping this thread for another question I have.

How big are the chances that all the holes and stubble's I see in the parts where i'm supposedly thinning, are hairs that just came out of their sleeping phase? I remember when I had a cyst on my head, it left a bald spot, but there were still holes there everywhere and now it fully grew after 2 months. Is it possible that could be the case for the other hairs as well?

Also, if my hair is miniaturizing, can miniaturized be restored without treatment?

Btw I haven't seen the derm yet but I did make an appointment, hence my questions.

Edited: 06/07/2013 at 04:06 PM by DjA
 06/07/2013 04:24 PM
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DontLetItFallOut
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Well dude, it`s almost impossible to tell how big are the chances. If you have stubble and holes this would mean the follicles there are not dead. But I really doubt if one can anticipate with naked eye if these are going to make a cosmetical difference if they grow. I personally think your'll get better and that`s a temporary loss, but that`s just a gut feeling. Calm down, your prio 0 now is to check with your doctor and if I were your I would insist for detailed scalp examination. If it`s just post minox TE they will be able to see it.
Hair Loss Help » Hair Loss Open Topic » I quit minoxidil 4 months ago and have a question

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