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Topic Title: The senseless and endless halt of RU58841
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Created On: 03/14/2008 04:27 AM
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 03/14/2008 04:27 AM
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deano
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The following is a quote from an article posted by John Ertel on May 1, 1999:

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A treatment that may be available in a few years that has promise for the front is RU58841. RU58841 is an androgen blocker that is applied topically. Unlike Proscar and other antiandrogens, it is only locally effective so it is safe for men to use without adverse sexual side effects.

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The following was posted by a forum user in Feb 2001:

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I read the article of hairloss written by Will Brink in 1996.
He wrote the wonder drug named RU 58841

RU 58841: This is the mother of all topical anti androgens. RU58841 is made by the Roussel Corporation of France. This stuff shuts down DHT at the hair follicle like nothing else. One of the major problems has been that anti androgens such as Spironolactone and Flutamide taken orally might be good for hair loss, but they cause all sorts of problems related to having low androgens in your body, such as loss of muscle, increased fat, loss of sex drive, gyno, etc. When these same anti androgens have been used topically (put directly on the scalp) they do not cause the negative systemic side effects, but they did not seem to do much of anything for hair loss or growth either. Therefore, a topically active anti androgen without systemic effects would be highly desirable. RU58841 is a topical anti androgen that shuts down DHT at the follicle without any systemic side effects in the body! This stuff is the best thing since the invention of the vibrator! Woops, did I actually say that aloud? Now for the bad news. RU58841 is not out for sale and probably won't be for quite some time. It is in the early stages of testing and I understand there are other reasons that it might be a long time until it hits the market. I would tell you what those reasons are, but then I would have to kill you, and that would be bad for magazine sales...... Make no mistakes about it, RU58841 is the drug of choice for hair loss and would stop hair loss cold in conjunction with a good topical anti inflammatory. Through my secret source, I was told that the initial feelings about this stuff by the researchers who tested it was that it would probably even grow back a lot of hair for some people. I would give my right-no make that left-gonad for some of this stuff. Oh well, maybe I can find some crazy chemist to whip me up some of this nifty compound for my own personal use. Will it cost me a nad?

This article is 5 years old, so is the RU58841 already avaible?

Man if this article is true i'm gonna get RU58841 one way or the other.

This could be the ultimate product for every one who use gear and fear hairloss.

If anyone have more info about this wonder stuff please tell.

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As you can see, the above quote from the article by John Ertel is now 9 years old (so much for a "few years"), and that article by Will Brink put up in the forum was 5 years old when that member posted it back in 2001, and now his post is a further 7 years old. Since that original article in 1996, over 12 years have passed with no progression on RU58841 which is still supposed to be the best topical anti androgen ever created. Hands down, that’s just pathetic. It looks to be the incredible stupidity and a poor ability to understand or to profit from the Roussel Uclaf Corporation of France (Dr. Sewaya developed it) whom manufactured the drug for no apparent reason other than to show it works great for hair loss, and then put it under the rug forever. There are people who say you can buy it in expensive powder and liquid forms from dodgy places in Japan. Hey, that sounds great, but RU58841 should have been trialled, optimised, and marketed under a brand name in our local pharmacies by now!


Edited: 03/14/2008 at 04:33 AM by deano
 03/14/2008 06:22 PM
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calvinmd
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I think it's a total chicken & egg problem.

The drug doesn't have a consistent record of success, because it's not being used in consistent enough doses & batches across the board, and not by a very representative example of the MPB world in general, because it's not a common & legit drug . . . because it doesn't have a very consistent record of success.

 03/14/2008 06:45 PM
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KKwilliams
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Ive read it has been shelved and is no longer being tested or developed.
 03/14/2008 07:18 PM
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deano
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Quote

Originally posted by: calvinmd
. . . because it doesn't have a very consistent record of success.


Well for it to have a very consistent record of success it needs to be clinically trialled like finasteride/minoxidil.

Quote

Originally posted by: KKwilliams
Ive read it has been shelved and is no longer being tested or developed.


I also read its not going anywhere because the company has no interested in going anywhere with it, and when there is no progression with it what so ever after more than a decade, you can see its not going anywhere, and its a senseless shame.
 03/14/2008 07:47 PM
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KKwilliams
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from everything i have "heard" it is supposed to be extremely powerful and has the potential to just smash the shittte out of minox. not sure hy but apparently a french company holds the rights to it but just sits on it!!!!!!!??? I dont know of any health concerns so why has it been shelfed?
 03/14/2008 07:47 PM
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captain_picard
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What really kills me is that you can sell anything as an herbal treatment for any purpose, and the FDA says that's perfectly okay! Buyer beware! Use at your own risk!

If it's a "chemical" (not found in nature or not known to be found in nature)? Screw that, we won't let you have it.

And the whispers about topical roxythromycin kind of irk me too. So here's something where Japan thinks they have something that works better than Minoxidil, properly studied and approved, right? But apparently medical research from other countries isn't good enough for the US. As though they don't have the same smarts or dedication we do, or a will to look out for their people's general interests.

Feh.
 03/14/2008 09:57 PM
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Bryan
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Some random thoughts on RU58841, in no particular order:

1) I've heard the rumor, too, that Sawaya was involved in its development, but I have no idea where that came from. As far as I know she had nothing to do with it, although she did do some testing on it at a later date. There's no mention of her name whatsoever in Battmann's original 1994 paper on RU58841.

2) While it's true that RU58841 may indeed "grow back a lot of hair" for some people, those same people would also probably do pretty well with just finasteride or dutasteride, too (meaning that those people are excellent and unusual responders). There's nothing magical about RU58841; yes, it's a darned good topical antiandrogen, but that's ALL it is, just an antiandrogen. As has been pointed out on alt.baldspot for the last 20 years or so, even TOTAL androgen ablation (castration along with powerful systemic antiandrogens like flutamide) doesn't regrow all THAT much hair (on average) on a scalp that's been balding for a long time.

3) The company that currently has the rights to RU58841 (Proskelia) suggests on their Web site that it has about the same degree of effectiveness in humans as Propecia, or maybe a little more, which agrees with point #2 above.

4) There's no doubt in my mind that the reason RU58841 still hasn't been developed for human use is that no company wants to have to pay hundreds of millions of $$$ for FDA approval for the drug, which is what it would definitely cost. Nobody wants to invest that kind of money for a topical drug which works only somewhat better than Propecia, and is much messier and more difficult to use than swallowing a tiny pill every day. It's much more expensive to manufacture, too.

5) To the poster who said that RU58841 has "the potential to just smash the shittte out of minox", here's something to keep in mind: in the testing with stumptailed macaques, RU58841 was no better at regrowing hair than topical 5% minoxidil. I have no particular reason to think it would be any different in humans, although I'll admit that RU58841 _does_ have the important advantage of inhibiting the fundamental balding process, as opposed to minoxidil (are you listening, Deano? ).

.
 03/15/2008 03:33 AM
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deano
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Yes I am, and I realise that Minoxidil is just a growth stimulator and does not hold the properties of an antiandrogen. I also acknowledge that finasteride and dutasteride are wonderful for hair loss, but they have sexual side effects. RU58841 apparently has no known side effects, which would indicate a weak systemic absorption potential. Spironolactone and Flutamide (as mentioned in the article) don't do much (if anything) topically. Topical RU58841 would be great for hair loss because it allegedly has a weak systemic absorption potential and shuts down the root cause of hair loss locally on the scalp, not throughout the body’s whole system which is madness when you really think about it. It doesn’t have to regrow a ton more hair than finasteride, dutasteride or minoxidil to be fantastic, as long as it puts a halt to hair loss with no systemic side effects, that’s wonderful. Right now I’m using Minoxidil 5% and hoping Nizoral 2% will at least weaken the androgen receptors in the scalp, accompanied with Nioxin to help keep the scalp in optimal condition, I see that hopefully buying me a couple of years.
 03/15/2008 08:32 AM
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stax
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The thing is, ive spent a TON of time searching all the hairloss boards regarding RU and peopl who have used it.


And all ive come across was around 10 or less people who have used it, and some claimed no results, some claimed RU gave them side effects, and a few people claimes RU worked well for them for a couple months, then the results started to go downhill.


The only person who RU has worked decent for over a longer time span is "Deisel" on this forum, and even he said he has slowly lost some ground and isnt even using RU right now anymore, he is giving 5% Spiro a run to see what happens.



Now for people who have and are using Propecia and Avodart, 95% of the posts i read is that it stopped thir hairloss, and some even got thickening and regrowth.



So if RU is supposed to be the best topical anti-androgen and work as good or better than Propecia, then why the lack of results compared to Propecia?



Beleive me i would LOVE if RU would halt my hairloss without inhibiting my DHT or giving me any side effects, but it just seems like a gamble that most likely wont pay off.
 03/15/2008 11:13 AM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: deano
Yes I am, and I realise that Minoxidil is just a growth stimulator and does not hold the properties of an antiandrogen.


So are you finally coming around to the realization that topical minoxidil doesn't "maintain" hair?

Quote

Originally posted by: deano
Spironolactone and Flutamide (as mentioned in the article) don't do much (if anything) topically.


Topical flutamide is still a bit of a question mark. Animal studies pretty clearly indicate that it works almost entirely by systemic absorption, but there's still a paucity of any evidence as to how it works in humans.

Topical spironolactone, though, is completely different: there are both human and animal studies showing that it _does_ work, although it's almost certainly not as effective as RU58841. In fact, comparing separate hamster studies (one testing spiro, the other testing RU58841), it appears that topical RU58841 has about TWICE the maximum effect as topical spiro, in some simple intuitive sense (sebaceous gland reduction with the former was about twice the sebaceous gland reduction with the latter).

Quote

Originally posted by: deano
Topical RU58841 would be great for hair loss because it allegedly has a weak systemic absorption potential and shuts down the root cause of hair loss locally on the scalp, not throughout the body’s whole system which is madness when you really think about it. It doesn’t have to regrow a ton more hair than finasteride, dutasteride or minoxidil to be fantastic, as long as it puts a halt to hair loss with no systemic side effects, that’s wonderful.


Agreed. It's odd that Will Brink would even say such a thing about the possibility of RU58841 "regrowing a lot of hair" in anybody. He should know better than to say that! But I think it's a perfectly reasonable expectation that it ought to be able to stop further balding.

.
 03/15/2008 11:19 AM
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stax
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Bryan, do you have any ideas or anything to why the people who have tried RU, have either gotton no halting of hairloss, or that it worked for 1-2 months then results quickly dropped off?


It just doesnt make any sense to me why such a powerfull topical anti-androgen such as RU, hasnt given these people any results, not even maintenance, for the most part.


Also, why didnt you ever use RU back in the days when you were using proctors products to fight hairloss?

Edited: 03/15/2008 at 11:20 AM by stax
 03/15/2008 12:46 PM
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KKwilliams
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Wasnt it that the source of RU was very shady and could not be verified so many of the guys who got there hands on it may not have got legit product. At least thats the impression I got.
 03/15/2008 05:19 PM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: stax
Bryan, do you have any ideas or anything to why the people who have tried RU, have either gotton no halting of hairloss, or that it worked for 1-2 months then results quickly dropped off?

It just doesnt make any sense to me why such a powerfull topical anti-androgen such as RU, hasnt given these people any results, not even maintenance, for the most part.


There's not too much I can say about that, except that I've always been generally skeptical of individual results like that posted on Internet forms, especially ones that aren't backed up by before-and-after photos. I have more confidence in Proskelia's (apparent) finding that RU works similarly to Propecia, because I'm assuming that was obtained in a clinical setting with haircounts or hairweights, photographic records, etc.

Quote

Originally posted by: stax
Also, why didnt you ever use RU back in the days when you were using proctors products to fight hairloss?


Oh, I was definitely interested in using the stuff, but I had to draw a line somewhere! The stuff is very expensive, very hard to get, and there's always that vague possibility that it might get confiscated by Customs and you lose everything!

.
 03/15/2008 05:39 PM
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Bryan
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BTW, I should mention here that I still have a small quantity of the Faith Eagle RU58841 which someone was kind enough to send me a while back. I still plan on using it in a small, simple test to see if it's capable of reducing sebum production in an oily area of my skin. The results should be fairly reliable, because I'll be using Sebutape test-strips to measure sebum in a more direct and scientific fashion. My only concern is whether or not the quantity I have is sufficient to get a fair result, but I'll report here whatever happens.

.
 03/15/2008 07:48 PM
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deano
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Bryan, do you not take finasteride or dutasteride because of the fear/experience of sexual side effects in the past?
Do you believe in the few that say they've caused them seemingly permanent side effects?
 03/15/2008 08:47 PM
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calvinmd
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I think the short answer on RU seems to be this:

You can basically think of it an effective topical (non-systemic) Finasteride. But it's bought overseas from expensive & unreilable sources, and needing very careful preparation & storage.




And I've said this before:

I suspect that something like RU would pack much more of a wallop if it was paired with something that suppressed the androgen receptors in the scalp. Like topical Curcumin, or the souped-up ASC-J9 version of Circumin that's under development.

 03/15/2008 11:24 PM
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back space
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Quote

Another series of hydantoin analogs are nilutamide derivatives like RU58642 [4-(3-Cyanomethyl-4,4-dimethyl-2,5-dioxo-imidazolidin-1-yl)-2-trifluoromethyl-benzonitrile] and RU58841 [1-(4-Hydroxy-butyl)-3-(4-isocyano-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-5,5-dimethyl-imidazolidine-2,4-dione]. RU58841 (Tables I and II) was developed in Europe for topical treatment of acne and alopecia (42,43), due to its short half life in vivo (less than one hour). Topical application not only avoids extensive hepatic metabolism (N-dealkylation) but also provides for effective regional treatment without systemic antiandrogen activity due to the formation of active metabolite (43,44). In comparison, structural analog RU58642 was shown to be orally active (35), and could significantly reduce prostate and seminal vesicle weights in intact male rats at dose rates from 1 to 30 mg/kg/day. It also dramatically increased serum testosterone levels in these animals by blocking the feedback regulation of LH release. The overall pharmacological profile of this compound is very similar to that of nilutamide. Although RU58642 was more potent than bicalutamide, hydroxyflutamide, and nilutamide, which could be related to its high binding affinity to AR (Table II), no further development of this ligand has been reported since 1998 (35).


I could be wrong but it looks like nilutamide is similar (but less potent) to RU58841 and costs a little over $200 for 90 pills.
What do you guys think, good alternative to RU58841 or not? Either way I don't think I would want to use any of this sh*t.
 03/16/2008 06:00 AM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: deano
Bryan, do you not take finasteride or dutasteride because of the fear/experience of sexual side effects in the past?


No, my only real fear right now is the uncertainty of what effect finasteride/dutasteride may ultimately have on the development of prostate cancer in older men like me.

Quote

Originally posted by: deano
Do you believe in the few that say they've caused them seemingly permanent side effects?


I honestly don't know if I believe that or not. I don't know WHAT to make of those claims.

.
 03/16/2008 06:08 AM
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Bryan
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Quote

Originally posted by: hairloss sucks
I could be wrong but it looks like nilutamide is similar (but less potent) to RU58841 and costs a little over $200 for 90 pills.

What do you guys think, good alternative to RU58841 or not?


Are you NUTS?? Who would be crazy enough to use a systemic antiandrogen??

.
 03/16/2008 06:16 AM
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calvinmd
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I guess the oral Spiro users would.



You'd never catch me doing it though. I wanna stay male.

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